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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Rules Clarifications |
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I'm starting this thread for any rules questions that may come up in any of the D&D Campaigns.
Here's one:
| Complete Divine wrote: | | A favored soul is often of the same alignment as her deity, though some are one step away. For example, a favored soul could serve a lawful good deity and be neutral good herself. A favored soul may not be neutral unless her deity is neutral |
Sample case, can a favored soul of Kord (CG) be NG? The rules text seems to contradict itself. Or does it refer only to the moral (good vs. evil) rather than ethical (order vs. chaos) axis?
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Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Similar text can be found on cleric's alignment restrictions.
| d20srd wrote: | Cleric
Alignment
A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral. |
And according to d20srd. Neutral alignment is :
| d20srd wrote: | Neutral, "Undecided"
A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.
Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.
Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion. |
So, Kord can have NG or CN favored souls. If the line "A favored soul may not be neutral unless her deity is neutral" confuses you, i think that the word "neutral" there is meant as TN (True Neutral) as oppose to one part neutral. To give other examples, St. Cuthbert (LN) can't have a TN favoured souls/clerics but can have both LG and LE favored souls. Boccob (TN) can have TN favored souls/clerics as wells as LN, CN, NG, and NE favored souls.
On why LN, CN, NG, and NE deities can't have TN favored souls/clerics, I can only give opinions. Maybe it's because of the "They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes." and "Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias" lines: as an agent of a deity, a cleric/favored sould should have conviction that matches at least part of the deity's philosophy. So, only TN deities can have TN favored soul/cleric either they both lack commitments, committed to neutralty, doesn't care, or just plain playing safe.
Did i bring great/moderate/minor enlightenment or more confusions? ... |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Danke. That clears it up pretty much, though I think Cuthbert specifies no evil worshippers (or is that only no evil clerics?)
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Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Xtian
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I checked and you are right, St. Cuthbert don't accept evil clerics. My baaad ... |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Okay, here's a stickler, how about favored souls? Unlikely, but not explicitly restricted, right?
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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By RAW (rules as written), I think St. Cuthbert can have LE FSs (favored souls). Also, after reading the favored sould entry,
| Complete Divine wrote: | | Divine magic is intuitive to a favored soul, not of careful prayer. This intuitive nature leads to a freer interpretation of faith and doctrine, and so favored souls tend slightly toward chaos over law. |
emphasis mine, FSs don't ask for spells, it is inherent to them. That might also explain why they can't channel positive/negative energies. Whether St. Cuthbert likes it or not, a lawful evil favored soul might be fighting for his name, maybe with the banner of St's truth porfolio. (I always believe LE creatures don't lie). |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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LE creatures can lie. Once in a while. 
As for favored souls, I think a char becomes one because the deity "favors" him/her. That means that he must at least start out with a favorable alignment. However, a god can choose to stop favoring the character, which would probably explain the alignment restriction.
This is very loose, however. I think favored souls of strict (aka lawful) gods are more prone to falling into disfavor than lax gods. This is just my opinion, though, as I don't have CD right now to back it up.
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Xtian
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | | LE creatures can lie. Once in a while. |
Let's define "lie". Note that lying has no canon definition so we use the real-world definition:
| Wikipedia wrote: | | A lie is a statement made by someone who believes or suspects it to be false, in the expectation that the hearers may believe it. |
Now, let us talk about alignments. These are written on SRD and this is the canonical explanation of alignments.
Law:
| d20srd wrote: | | Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. |
Chaos:
| d20srd wrote: | | Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. |
Law implies ... trustworthiness. Chaos implies ... adaptability and flexibility. These are written in SRD and PHB so you may check it any time. It is quite obvious from the given explanations that Lawful characters don't lie since it is not part of their ethical stance. Ergo, lying is a nonlawful act. On the neutral part of Law-Chaos alignment:
| d20srd wrote: | | Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others. |
Emphasis mine. It can be safely concluded that lying is a chaotic act.
On Good-Evil axis here's what SRD has to say:
| Quote: | "Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. |
You can't find anything regarding lying on GOod-Evil axis. Lying is purely on Law-Chaos axis.
So, can LE creatures lie? My answer depends on the creature in question. LE mortals might find it uncomfortable to lie but they can and will, depending on the situation. Example, a paladin is restricted from lying and will lose paladinhood if he does. But he can lie if the consequence is for good and then might atone later. Mortals, in D&D, i believe has degree of free will. Outsider creatures, on the other hand, represent an agent of an alignment (not deity!). Devils, as the corporeal agents of LE can't lie. There could be very rare instances that devils lie and this can be found on low-ranking devils. As devils go up to devil hierarchy, the more they personify LE. Ergo, if Asmodeus said he will not kill you, rest assured that he will not kill you. Though, his bodyguards might.
Non-outsider LE can lie, but this will shift their alignment.
Outsiders with lawful alignment and subtype will not lie. Very rare exceptions might exist and will probably change their very nature (like becoming a "fallen", exiled from home plane, etc..)
A paragon exemplar of personified LE will never lie if he/she/exist. |
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: asteeeg |
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xtian makes a forceful and convincing arguement so lying may warrant a DM to give a penalty to any lawful characters alignment????
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Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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He makes a good argument for lawful outsiders, but the same does not always hold for characters. While paladins are still penalized, most lawful characters will still be able to get away with small lies or bending the truth (see asmodeus comment above) as long as this does not become a pattern.
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think you're taking this lying thing too seriously. It would all depend on the gravity of the lie for any effect on the alignment to take place.
Example Scenario
Hostess: "Have you had your lunch?"
Paladin: (Although he hasn't had lunch, he considers that his hostess is rather economically-challenged) "Yes, milady, but your graciousness is wholly appreciated."
Alignment in D&D dictates the general disposition and outlook of the character. You don't have to adhere to your alignment so much as to check with it for every action you make. DMs should only bother with alignment shifts if a grave misconduct (relative to the alignment) is made or small misconducts are occuring way too frequently.
_________________
A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | I think you're taking this lying thing too seriously. It would all depend on the gravity of the lie for any effect on the alignment to take place.
Example Scenario
Hostess: "Have you had your lunch?"
Paladin: (Although he hasn't had lunch, he considers that his hostess is rather economically-challenged) "Yes, milady, but your graciousness is wholly appreciated."
Alignment in D&D dictates the general disposition and outlook of the character. You don't have to adhere to your alignment so much as to check with it for every action you make. DMs should only bother with alignment shifts if a grave misconduct (relative to the alignment) is made or small misconducts are occuring way too frequently. |
Yes, I agree to this. Mortals can have some leeway on lying. But for outsiders, the exemplars of alignments and personifications of metaphysical concepts, they will tell the truth because it is their nature to tell the truth. They could be forced to lie but it is against their will.  |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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All this stuff about lying! Hahaha...
I agree that lying is a chaotic act. But lying could still be used to protect the interests of law. Thus lawful creatures would be justified in lying.
Although, it's not a habit for them. They would rather not lie. That's all I wanted to say before.
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Xtian
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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They can never lie, especially lawful outsiders, but can tell indirect truths or bended truths. Mortals have leeway because of dm.
On Pitz's example scenario, the Paladin is lying and might get away with it because there was "nothing" to break his honor. No one else to prove he lied and was an act of dishonor. Dm might let him get away with it. Otherwise, in the same scenario, if the paladin was proven that he lied, it is a dishonor because what he did was a conduct of rudeness.
On absolute view, he lied. Period. He should had never lied, whether it would bring good or ill. What the paladin did was an more on boundaries of neutral-chaos, and never lawful.
Example Scenario 2
Hostess: "Have you had your lunch?"
Alternate Paladin: (Although he hasn't had lunch, he considers that his hostess is rather economically-challenged) "No, milady, and your graciousness is wholly appreciated. However, I opt not to eat now for personal reason I rather not discuss."
And also, lawful creature is not forced to answer every question directly. He may choose to evade it.
Remember that we are talking in D&D rules context here, not real life. |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, how about a case concerning official orders? For example, what if Asmodeus orders some balor under his command to deliberately lie to a bunch of PCs to feed them false info? Lying would be chaotic, but given Law's penchant for hierarchy, respect for command, and the letter of the law, the balor would have to lie, right? Otherwise, he would be going against the orders of his ultimate superior. Moral bind? Impossible case? It's not really that far-fetched a situation.
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Xtian
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Revan wrote: | | Okay, how about a case concerning official orders? For example, what if Asmodeus orders some balor under his command to deliberately lie to a bunch of PCs to feed them false info? Lying would be chaotic, but given Law's penchant for hierarchy, respect for command, and the letter of the law, the balor would have to lie, right? Otherwise, he would be going against the orders of his ultimate superior. Moral bind? Impossible case? It's not really that far-fetched a situation. |
First off, Balors are demons, not devils. They are CE therefore they could lie.
So, let us change the balors to its devil counterpart, the pit fiend.
And why would Asmodeus promote lying in the first place? Devils, if i am not mistaken, promote the spread of truth since using the truth is their way of attracting mortals to trade their souls. Asmodeus would rather misdirect, delay, or otherwise use loopholes of the wordings instead of blatant lying.
Asmodeus may use play of words so it will not appear as lying. But it is not in the problem.
Granted that Asmodeus promoted lying to his pit fiends two things could happen.
1. Follow Asmodeus, and do the command by the letter and lie and risk of alignment change.
2. Follow Asmodeus, being LE they will find lying uncomfortable hence try to find loopholes in Asmodeus plans and still manage to bring false info to the PCs.
The pit fiends will choose to follow Asmodeus because:
1. Asmodeus is their superior.
2. Asmodeus' actions will always promote Hell. This will be the pit fiends underlying assumptions.
3. The PCs might be against hell. Depends on the goals.
4. Asmodeus can and will demote them if they don't follow.
They have more reason to follow Asmodeus than not, even if they might not feel very comfortable about lying directly, if they choose that path. |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Whoops, my bad on the pit fiend/balor mixup. Kay. But in this case, it would be permissible for them to lie, right?
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Xtian
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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As I said, assuming Asmodeus, in against Asmodeus himself's nature, told them to lie, they will lie, on Asmodeus' terms and definitions of lying. They will lie, and will follow their superior. Asmodeus himself told them to lie so they will lie. Following Asmodeus is the lesser "chaos" here.
Of course, that scenario is outside of D&D alignment context of LE. In D&D canon, Asmodeus will never do that order. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Asmodeus himself disdains lying, and the other devils try to emulate their most superior.
But if Devils can't lie, then shouldn't Baalzebul, Lord of Lies, exist? Besides, FC2 instructs DMs to roleplay Harvester Devils as creatures who, "like to 'falsely inform' their prospective souls".
Maybe, they just don't like the term lying.
But enough of that. This debate has gone on long enough. I have another question:
Should the extra damage from Power attack stack on a critical hit? I mean, according to PHB, damage other than what is normal for the specific weapon, such as sneak attack, shouldn't stack. So, that means enhancement bonuses stack. But what about power attack? Monsters with the Power Attack include their PAtk modifiers to their damage roll entry, which encourages DMs to include it should a crit occur.
I remember a time when we didn't include weapon spec, enhancement, etc to our damage crits. That essentially made a low str, finessing character's +5 keen rapier that (edit) unimpressive starting at early high levels. Power Attack, I think, should be in a similar boat. I mean, if a character puts all his strength into an attack, and it hits some vital organ or other, should't the hit be "more critical"?
Thoughts?
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Last edited by BJ on Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | Should the extra damage from Power attack stack on a critical hit? I mean, according to PHB, damage other than what is normal for the specific weapon, such as sneak attack, shouldn't stack. So, that means enhancement bonuses stack. But what about power attack? Monsters with the Power Attack include their PAtk modifiers to their damage roll entry, which encourages DMs to include it should a crit occur.
I remember a time when we didn't include weapon spec, enhancement, etc to our damage crits. That essentially made a low str, finessing character's +5 keen rapier that impressive starting at early high levels. Power Attack, I think, should be in a similar boat. I mean, if a character puts all his strength into an attack, and it hits some vital organ or other, should't the hit be "more critical"? |
IMO, Power Attack gets multiplied on a crit. Like you said, the attack gains an extra boost of strength. If it hits some vital spot, that also translates into greater damage.
Sneak attack, OTOH, is already a well-placed attack so it doesn't crit. As for weapon enhancements like flaming, they toned it down for game balance, and maybe so flaming burst and the like can be used.
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A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Power attack stacks on crit.
Extra damage dice (burst, sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike) dont stack on crit.
Constant damage modifier (strength bonus, weapon spec, weapon enhancement, smite evil/good, power attack) stack.
Extra damage dice are "extra" damage. Addition to damage mods are "increase" in damage. That's why they will stack. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Right. Thanks for the clarification. OLRAYT! Power attack the keen falchion FTW!!!!
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gold saint
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Juvenile Dragon
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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gold saint
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Master of Nine |
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| I was wondering if a Warblade 13/Crusader 2 took in levels of Master of Nine, what would be his initiator level if he took Devoted Spirit Maneuvers as a Master of Nine? Would he also be able to use the Warblade recovery method on this school? |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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if you take Mo9 in full, based on RAW, i believe that would result in an effective initiator level of Warblade19/Crusader13.
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Nope.
If you happen to have two classes, IL is computed as such. Let's take the Gold Saint's example:
Warblade IL: 13+1/2(2)=14
Crusader IL: 2 +1/2(13, round down)=8
If you take Mo9, you have to choose which Initiator level to add to, and the other class will only receive half.
Thus, after five levels of Mo9, assuming you add it to crusader, you'll get:
Warblade IL: 13+1/2(7)=16
Crusader IL: 7+1/2(13)=13
I should know, i studied this extensively when designing the Herald of Harm (who had both swordsage and crusader levels, going to Ruby Knight eventually)
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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really? i was looking for that in the rules text, didn't quite chance upon it.
ah well. that's what you get for making impromptu search checks XD
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:41 am Post subject: Re: Master of Nine |
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| gold saint wrote: | | I was wondering if a Warblade 13/Crusader 2 took in levels of Master of Nine, what would be his initiator level if he took Devoted Spirit Maneuvers as a Master of Nine? Would he also be able to use the Warblade recovery method on this school? |
Hei! start your own thread next time! |
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 1898 |
| Location: 666th Layer of Hell |
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Isn't asking for rules a rule clarification???? heheheheh just my thoughts
_________________
Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3260 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| dark_axis wrote: | | Isn't asking for rules a rule clarification???? heheheheh just my thoughts |
Oh! Right. I missed this one:
| Revan wrote: | | I'm starting this thread for any rules questions that may come up in any of the D&D Campaigns. |
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