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| < In Discussion ~ On the Proposal Revisions (aka timeline discussion thread) |
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 Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:56 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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| Revan wrote: |
Been talking to my brother yesterday and brainstorming ideas. Some proposed revisions to some core concepts.
1. Eternals
-Reduce the numbers of these guys to make them more special/unique/powerful. Maybe a few thousand of them only. These guys will become the foundations of the Dukes of Hell, the Lords of the Abyss, as well as the Loyalist Archons and Liberators.
-They served as warleaders to the gods' mortal hosts during the wars for Creation. This explains demonic contempt, diabolic superiority complex, and how the Liberators eventually sympathized with and gained the trust of the mortal hosts.
-The original members of the Hosts could eventually grant Eternal apotheosis to those mortal souls deemed worthy, creating lesser Eternals (or D&D standard celestials, demons, and devils). So you have the original Eternals, and their allied minions. Very tentative on this one. Shoot comments, or hell, shoot this one down.
2. Gods
-Materializing the gods doesn't mean they became smaller, especially for gods of things like strength, or nature (like Biagtan). A sudden visual idea we have is Shadow of the Colossus, where the protagonist has to kill gigantic, sky-scraper-tall collosi in order to kill them. The image of a warrior clawing his way up a Titan's carapace just seems incredibly appropriate for the Godfall war. Imagine a swarm of humans crawling over the body of a god like a swarm of ants, eventually bringing it down to the point that a mortal could employ a Godslayer on it.
-The gods are dead, but not quite forgotten. Remember names, associations, etc.
3. Timescale.
-The post-apocalyptic feel just doesn't work as well thousands of years later. Why not shorten the scale to around 200-300 years? 5+ human generations, 1 dwarven generation, or 1/2 an elven one. Long enough for an oral tradition to build up, and also enough of a distance in time that some of the details are being forgotten.
4. Cosmology
-back to a more standard cosmology idea, since infinite planes created at the Sundering doesn't work with a short timespan.
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Comments.
1.I agree with this one, except for calling them lesser eternals. The newer ones are simply angels, demons, devils. Eternals feel more like Malefircarim (to the uninitiated, the Malefircareim were the first Baatezu, crawling forth from the spilled blood of the Overlord of Hell).
2.Biagtan suffered a reduction in size, yes (He was originally one really really big tree that craped the clouds), but the hunter Biagtan was still big. Like, Storm Giant big. Not as impresive as the Collosi from the game, but it allowed him to use stealth at least a bit more effectively.
3. an 4. I do not understand the "why" of this. I contest that the details are not forgotten at all by this time. See, you're looking at it from a human perspective. Humans live short, short lives. Dwarves live to 400, Elves live to 700, fae live thousands of years (although the fae hold a spot similar to the eternals, so they probably don't count). I still say 5000 years. |
Last edited by BJ on Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:05 pm
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus
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Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:51 pm
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Old Dragon
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 413
Location: Limbo
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| 3. A think that thousands of years is fine... Kal Dathra's been damaged very badly during the Godfall War, that 5000 thousand years is barely enough for the plane to start its recovery. |
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Master Wayne, you've just been PWNED! |
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:20 pm
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Location: Korriban
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Looking at it from a human perspective, yes, all you'll have left is oral history, but I want there to be a few vestiges remaining of actual, living memory from the time of the gods, from perhaps the most ancient of elves or dwarves. The fae don't and shouldn't count for this one. The memories of godfall IMO should be fresh. Which is why 300-500 years after is personally interesting. Then again, that's a pretty short time for a series of nations to build up from world-shattering cataclysm.
-subproposal: lowered "tech and culture" levels. Not that these people live in the stone age, but with so much destruction caused by godfall and the aftermath, I don't see anything grand and sweeping like the heights of the Roman Empire or Rennaisance Europe. Think more brutal Dark Age and Fall of the Light kind of ambiance. Which is why the Filipino-esque elves appeal to me in this setting as well.
EDIT: Also, at thousands of years, it becomes more implausible for there to be relatively untouched or intact areas of divine relics. Damned adventurers would have cleaned things out after 1000, I figure. |
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Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:02 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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| Revan wrote: |
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...but I want there to be a few vestiges remaining of actual, living memory from the time of the gods, from perhaps the most ancient of elves or dwarves.
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Why?
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| The memories of godfall IMO should be fresh.
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Why?
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| -subproposal: lowered "tech and culture" levels. Not that these people live in the stone age, but with so much destruction caused by godfall and the aftermath, I don't see anything grand and sweeping like the heights of the Roman Empire or Rennaisance Europe. Think more brutal Dark Age and Fall of the Light kind of ambiance. Which is why the Filipino-esque elves appeal to me in this setting as well.
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Agreed.
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| Also, at thousands of years, it becomes more implausible for there to be relatively untouched or intact areas of divine relics. Damned adventurers would have cleaned things out after 1000, I figure.
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Disagreed. You give adventurers too much credit. |
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:39 pm
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus
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| Quote: |
| The memories of godfall IMO should be fresh.
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If it was really world changing the surviving intelligent races will not forget that event.
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| -subproposal: lowered "tech and culture" levels. Not that these people live in the stone age, but with so much destruction caused by godfall and the aftermath, I don't see anything grand and sweeping like the heights of the Roman Empire or Rennaisance Europe. Think more brutal Dark Age and Fall of the Light kind of ambiance. Which is why the Filipino-esque elves appeal to me in this setting as well.
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Damn. I was thinking of some cultures with relatively high technology.
Almost steampunk. So... there are no zeppelins, telescopes, and gith astral briggs? .... How about golems?
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| Also, at thousands of years, it becomes more implausible for there to be relatively untouched or intact areas of divine relics. Damned adventurers would have cleaned things out after 1000, I figure.
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Not everything should be untouched. And not everything were found by those pesky adventurers. They were not easy to find or there were not that many adventurers. It is also possible that some relics are out in the open but no one except the right person/entity can touch/use it. Not every relics are for everyone i think. |
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"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:26 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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On boy_bakal's timeline proposal: For easy reference I copy-pasted boy_bakal's proposals. Bear with the lengthy post.
*NHD's and DPWH's: I have no qualms here.
*Era of Famine
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For the first, say, 1000 years or so, the land was so dry that no decent crops could be grown. There wasn't enough food to go around, so communities starved regularly; some individuals even went to great extremes, resorting to hunting down members of other races for food or, worse yet, cannibalism. Mornings were hot and nights were cold and everything else in between was hell. The numbers of each race dwindled as this went on, down to only a few representatives at the end of this period. Resources were finite; plenty, but not plentiful. Mortals were pretty much slated for extinction, and most just waited for a slow, painful death.
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-->expound on this one please. If the land was so dry no decent crops could be grown, where do they get their food (cannibalism in BoVD was described as the consummation of a sentient race's flesh. Thus a dwarf eating a halfling is cannibalism. That said, cannibalism can only get so far)?
Plus, the elves are currently living in or near Fil'hefinas, where nature is eerily overabundant. Their problem there is not having too few to eat, but having too many mutations that "eat them". These are Fil'hefinas elves, though. There could be others around.
*Era of Repopulation:
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| After this period, however, the land slowly--and I mean SLOWLY--started to heal. A lone shrub sprouts from the cracks in dry soil, a few drops of water seep up from an old water source, clouds start gathering and blocking out the sun every so often. All this is possible due to the godstones' powers slowly taking shape and seeping into the world. What few surviving mortals remained found it just a little easier to survive, and their numbers started growing again. Only repopulation takes a lot longer, since surviving this land is so difficult, and it takes a full 2000 years to return to post-apocalypse numbers.
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--->I'm good here.
*Era of Healing
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That's when the rain began. The rain was grey and, strangely enough, a little dry, if that could be believed. It was harsh to the skin and it burned your eyes. It would rain without end for several days, stop for a few hours to two days at most, then rain again. This continued for 800 years, and by then, the world had really started to look a lot better. A few plants had sprouted in certain areas, and rivers and lakes had started to fill up again (though the water was murky and filled with ash). It took mortals 200 years to figure out how to utilize these new resources, and by the end of the period, civilization was starting to thrive again: primitive tribal societies were formed, using simple tools and technology, rationing what little resources they have on hand to make sure it lasts. For the first time in 4000 years people were actually trying to live, not just survive.
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Good with this one as well.
*Ka'ir
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It was at the start of the next period that it happened. A particular cave had opened up somewhere near a human settlement, and when people were sent to investigate it, they never returned. Soon it became a legend in the tribe, a real "cave of no return". Word spread of this cave, and every so often travelers would travel far and attempt to explore this cave, but they would never return. It went on for years, until suddenly a young tribesman decided to explore the cave and figure out its mystery once and for all. Packing only his trusty axe and a burning branch for light, he sought out the cave's mystery.
The cave went very deep apparently, with twists and turns and confusing corridors. Also, strangely enough, it appeared to have numerous traps: sometimes solid ground would just open up and turn into a hole, or rocks would rain from the ceiling, or stalactites (stalagmites?) would shoot up from the walls. The tribesman found a way to conquer all these threats, and at last he was in a room with a big pink rock crystal in the middle. It resonated with a faint, luminous glow that seemed to beckon him ever closer, and so he walked right up to it.
And then he smashed it with his axe.
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The godstone shattered into billions of tiny pieces, pieces that entered the atmosphere and the water and everything else. Upon inhalation, almost at the same entire time, people remembered: they remembered the war between the gods, the old technology they had available, the world as it used to be with its grand sprawling forests. They remembered old alliegances and vendettas and feelings long buried, and though the experience was different for everybody, one thought was emblazoned in all their minds: Our gods must be avenged!
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--->Flavor-wise it's okay. But for future reference, I'd much rather if Godstones other than Ka'ir's are hard to destroy. Plus, a minor nitpick. Won't a Greatclub fit better than an axe? Hehe
*Era of Reconstruction
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Fast forward another 1000 years. The memories granted by Ka'ir's godstone split mortals somewhat: others want to bring back the status quo of society, while others want to familiarize themselves with arcana and the divine, while others still wish to refine military technology such as weapons and fortresses. This split in mortal thinking, as well as the world's already scant resources, brings civilization only so far.
Trade is reintroduced, as it was in the past. It began with barter initially, but progressed to the system of coin trade in time. Buildings are erected, but they are short and squat and made with bricks of mud and stone, a far cry from the sprawling metropolitan centers of the past. Societies and governments are formed, but they are nothing like the vast information networks of the past. A good, functional government has control of two or three large communities on average, and are primarily only concerned with their own territory.
This, as much as anything else, is the cause of much conflict. Oftentimes regions of great importance--be they veins of precious metals, water sources or areas thick in foliage, and even (rather, especially) sites claimed to have new godstones--will be fought over by neighboring regions. Sometimes they will reach a compromise, but more often than not, the ensuing conflict will be violent.
Governments are always thinking of expanding their territory. Whether or not they succeed is another matter entirely.
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--->Ok
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Magic is rekindled at a snail's pace, since the pioneers of magic in this age had to learn each spell with no clues to guide them. All they had to work with were their memories, and the rest was pure blood, sweat, and tears (sometimes in the form of material components). As such, only a handful of mortals have achieved the pinnacle of their magical achievements. So while the art of magic is very much alive again, it is still very uncommon, even fearsome, to most.
Clerics in particular went through a bit of a rough period, in that they did not know whether or not the old gods would answer their prayers. However, they retained the memories of the gods, and it seems that would be enough: the godstones would do the rest, apparently.
This seems dangerous for many reasons, though. From the start, clerics who wished to devote themselves to Ka'ir gained no spells or granted powers whatsoever, which led some to theorize that, should a godstone be destroyed, a cleric of that god would be rendered powerless. Indeed, some have gone so far as to say that a godstone's power is finite, and thus enough clerics of a particular deity will eventually drain their deity's godstone, much to the detriment of their entire order.
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--->Good, although are we taking the stance that the deity only has one major godstone?
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Military technology, too, has only gone so far. Metals are hard to come by, and are scarce in supply. In addition, the art of the forge had to be relearned from scratch, with the dwarves, of course, at the forefront of this technology. Even the dwarves, however, had a tough time re-learning the old tricks of their trade. In time, though, metallurgy began to flourish yet again, and most warriors can at least purchase some basic equipment. Masterwork gear is harder to come by; oftentimes, it's passed down from generation to generation. Magical items have only now been reintroduced, coinciding with the recent advancements in magic of recent years. There are a few faulty items every now and then as apprentice mages make their mistakes, but these incidents have been occurring less often lately.
This is to say nothing of advancements in fighting styles. Military strategy is close to non-existent at this point, as the individual warriors have only now begun to recall the great feats (yes, literally) that the warriors of the past could perform. Battles between "armies" composed of a few dozen people each have largely been nothing more than all-out brawls between the individual combatants, each trying to take down as many men as they can before they die. Often the military leaders are those who are fortunate enough to be able to go home and tell the rest of the military the results of a given battle. As such, military strategy is now being explored, wily veterans of previous conflicts sharing their (select) secrets of survival with their recruits.
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--->This is the general stance. However, maybe we have a Sun Tzu like character who at one point studied War extensively? We should maintain that we at least have a few "educated generals", possibly hailing from (gasp!) the Mandrakori. They are very few and far between, though. Like, maybe only nine. (hint, hint)
*Modern Era
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That's the world as it is now: a society still reeling from the blow of an apocalypse that occurred 5000 years ago, an occurence that has affected it ever since. We open here, the age of innovation and exploration, where groups of individuals are sent from their homes to discover resources that would serve their community well; or where brave souls wander the land alone, in search of fame, fortune, and adventure; or where good-hearted individuals travel wherever they feel they can help, while evil beings seek to gain as much as they can from the weak before they run out. An air of paranoia and greed runs through the air. One's allies one day can be his enemies the next, and one must do what he must to survive. The threat of war looms constantly, as the promise of vengeance has not yet been fulfilled... a lot like Pharagos in its way, but a lot more desperate.
On a final note: it has been a thousand years since the first godstone was found. It was in a labyrinth that no mortal could have possibly constructed. The conclusion is thus: a godstone shapes the area around it to protect itself. Either it does not want to be found, or it aims to test the worth of those who would seek it. This implies that godstones, while not entirely sentient, do have some semblance of will.
(Note: Some specifics here. First, a godstone cannot, say, grow itself a tentacle and grab the nearest bystander it happens by. It cannot command you to do something you wouldn't normally do. Rather, its resonance influences the area around it and the people around it. A lawful character around a lawful godstone would feel a great feeling of lawfulness in the area of a godstone, and so on. This resonance is enough to move inanimate objects, but it does so very very slowly.
Once it's been found, however, it will not influence the area around it as directly... provided it is sufficiently guarded. If it "feels" a little unsafe, it will shape the area to make some modifications; add some traps here and there, make corridors leading to it more difficult to traverse, etc. Again, this happens very slowly. Often it takes about a month or so for one trap to form, and guards will often notice this formation, thus we avoid "guard suddenly walks into a spiked pit that wasn't there the previous night" scenarios.
A lot of research has gone into uncovering these facts, and a lot of mistakes were made. But it's a thousand years past the first discovery anyway; what few people possess godstones should know how to take care of them at this point. On the other hand, given this much time, undiscovered godstones are certain to have more intricate designs in the dungeons that house them.)
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--->Good.
**********
We should note that while this is how the world is, there are exceptions here and there, due to special circumstances. Thralls of eternals would understand the arcane more than any other, elves could not have forgotten at all, etc. |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:29 pm
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Lord of Pwnage
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 1920
Location: Zero
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| BJ wrote: |
expound on this one please. If the land was so dry no decent crops could be grown, where do they get their food (cannibalism in BoVD was described as the consummation of a sentient race's flesh. Thus a dwarf eating a halfling is cannibalism. That said, cannibalism can only get so far)?
Plus, the elves are currently living in or near Fil'hefinas, where nature is eerily overabundant. Their problem there is not having too few to eat, but having too many mutations that "eat them". These are Fil'hefinas elves, though. There could be others around.
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Crops still grew, don't get me wrong, but they were very scarce. A month's labor would produce only enough to feed a small fraction of the population, etc. Sometimes crops would be mutated as you've mentioned, and would not be fit for consumption. Don't think of it so much as a total famine, more like a period wherein only three-quarters of the population are able to get food. That's why the numbers thin very slowly.
The cannibalism part of it happens very late in the period. Again, only a select few individuals go this far; you won't find, say, a cannibal community hunting down other races to get food. Society as a whole still retains enough of its morals to reject cannibalism and punish offenders as appropriate.
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Flavor-wise it's okay. But for future reference, I'd much rather if Godstones other than Ka'ir's are hard to destroy. Plus, a minor nitpick. Won't a Greatclub fit better than an axe? Hehe
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Greatclub, then. I'm actually not too particular about that.
As for how easy it was to destroy, I mentioned this in part two: "It shattered so easily because, well, fate is fragile. Man can shatter it with but the slightest alteration, if only he had higher awareness of it." It stands to reason that other godstones are much, much harder to destroy. In this particular case, however, if nothing else, we can chalk it up to fate.
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Good, although are we taking the stance that the deity only has one major godstone?
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Although I wrote it with that stance in mind, it can be revised easily. I only wanted to point out that godstones, not being gods themselves, can provide only so much divine power/energy/what have you. It is abundant, to be sure, but ultimately finite.
However, if you guys would rather alter this so that godstones provide divine energy as usual, that works too.
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This is the general stance. However, maybe we have a Sun Tzu like character who at one point studied War extensively? We should maintain that we at least have a few "educated generals", possibly hailing from (gasp!) the Mandrakori. They are very few and far between, though. Like, maybe only nine. (hint, hint)
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Indeed, the modern era is not without its military strategists. Although the difference is this: all of them are up-and-coming figures in the world of warfare, not seasoned veterans who have seen a thousand battles. There are a few renowned ones of course, either due to their win-loss record or the sheer brilliance of their ideas. As such this angle is flexible, and we can play up to either aspect of it as necessary.
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We should note that while this is how the world is, there are exceptions here and there, due to special circumstances. Thralls of eternals would understand the arcane more than any other, elves could not have forgotten at all, etc.
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Of course. I admittedly wrote this largely with human society in mind, but these things will have affected everybody, and everybody will have coped in their own way. The Elves and the Halflings would have run to what few forests were left, the Gnomes and Dwarves would have burrowed deep into their underground chambers, etc. The things that are natural for each race are still there, even though they don't quite practice them as much anymore. Thus every race will have little variations here and there, but again, as was previously mentioned, this is the general track of what happened to the mortals in the past 5000 years. |
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:42 am
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:52 am
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Lord of Pwnage
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 1920
Location: Zero
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| ...eternals? @_@ If I knew what they are, I could figure out what they were doing, lol |
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:00 pm
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban
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| BJ wrote: |
| Revan wrote: |
3. Timescale.
-The post-apocalyptic feel just doesn't work as well thousands of years later. Why not shorten the scale to around 200-300 years? 5+ human generations, 1 dwarven generation, or 1/2 an elven one. Long enough for an oral tradition to build up, and also enough of a distance in time that some of the details are being forgotten.
4. Cosmology
-back to a more standard cosmology idea, since infinite planes created at the Sundering doesn't work with a short timespan.
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Comments.
3. an 4. I do not understand the "why" of this. I contest that the details are not forgotten at all by this time. See, you're looking at it from a human perspective. Humans live short, short lives. Dwarves live to 400, Elves live to 700, fae live thousands of years (although the fae hold a spot similar to the eternals, so they probably don't count). I still say 5000 years.
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Slight revisions right now, playing the devil's advocate for a shorter time scale of roughly 500 years post-Godfall.
Rephrase some of the aims for having a shorter time-span.
-Immediacy of the Godfall War. All of this occured within a few human generations of the present gamedate. When I said that details are forgotten, I don't mean forgotten completely. I mean that it begins to change into an oral tradition narrated by the clan/tribe elders, but with the material proof for it still present all around. The (human) tale-spinners will not know the exact numbers fielded at Kal Dathra, the battleplans, the day-by-day historical record of the Godfall rebellion. However, there are still elves and a few ancient dwarves who lived through the most titanic of the battles. These elders among both the Redeemers and the Free can still provide a living font of memory of the Golden Age/Dark Times before the fall of the gods. Freshness, without exactitude.
-On writing from a human perspective: these guys are (in D&D standard at least) the numerically superior race in most of the known world. Excepting odball racial kingdoms, humanity will probably form the nucleus of any new political organizations. The elves and dwarves and long-lived mortals will remember the ancient days, and many will unconsciously use these as the models for rebuilding, while humanity, due to its shorter memory span, are more likely (along with halflings) to try something else or forge a new path.
Why is 5000+ years too long IMO?
-Real world historical analogue: the Fall of Rome
It only took Western Europe around 4 centuries of the Dark Ages to begin reforming around the nucleus of Charlemagne's Empire, seen by some as the seed of Western Europe's rebirth. Roughly four centuries to rebuild from the collapse of the foundations of the continent-spanning empire and the fall of its agriculture, organization, and culture. Granted, they didn't exterminate gods, and they did not go through world-shattering cataclysms, but even then, with five thousand years to work with, I'd think the building of a new world order should be well on its way.
-Memory
Okay, I'm writing this one from a human POV, but then see above. By 5000 years, all this becomes fragmented, disjointed memory. It only took a few centuries for the destruction of Thera to transform into the myth of Atlantis, and it only took less than 2000 years for scholars to begin to question the very existence of the historical events that were the catalysts of our great religions. The Trojan War was once thought a mere myth in the 1800s until the uncovering of the ruins of Troy and documentary finds of Hittite records. The point is, that at the scale of thousands of years, these things begin to calcify into myth and legend, eventually being called into question. It would be too easy to envision an arcanist scholar 5k years later somewhere going:
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Godfall War? Really now? A war where mere mortals destroyed the infinite? A conflict where humanity itself snuffed out the sun and cast down high and ancient powers? And you believe that crap? What evidence do we even have that these "gods" ever existed, except as mere projections of our mortal psyches? And snuffing out the sun? A solar eclipse, perhaps, or a sandstorm obscuring the light.
I tell you child, all of these stories of a "Godfall War" are merely propaganda, literary devices used by the Lightbringers, and all those of their ilk who control these "Godstones", calling them untouchable sacred relics rather than allowing true scholars of reason, arcana, and science to study them for what they really are. There were no gods! There was no Godfall War! What we have is a grand conspiracy of priests and nobles all cementing their hold on their sources of power, these "godstones", through propaganda! But the time will come, the truth will come out!
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Sorry, got carried away by story again. Any way, it's too easy to attack the historicity of Godfall by this time, when instead, its fresh memory and legacy should be a crucial part of the campaign ambiance.
More to follow. Must catch Jigoku Shojo. |
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Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:52 pm
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Lord of Pwnage
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 1920
Location: Zero
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| Revan wrote: |
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On writing from a human perspective
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We actually are still writing from a human perspective. Their numbers amount to nothing after the war, their political organizations likewise. Sure each community has its leaders, because it's normal. But after the war, the world was so barren and empty that they simply did not have the time for any sort of political growth. There was the routine that each group had settled upon. That's what got most of them through the day, so that's what they kept doing.
Also, the long timespan works beautifully if we play up the revenge angle. 5000 years of suffering and scraping just to get by, and suddenly the humans remember most of the things that made them so dangerous back in the day, all their little tricks of the trade and whatnot. After 5000 years, you think they'd just forget about something like the Godfall War, right?
Hehe... of course not. 
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-Real world historical analogue: the Fall of Rome
It only took Western Europe around 4 centuries of the Dark Ages to begin reforming around the nucleus of Charlemagne's Empire, seen by some as the seed of Western Europe's rebirth. Roughly four centuries to rebuild from the collapse of the foundations of the continent-spanning empire and the fall of its agriculture, organization, and culture. Granted, they didn't exterminate gods, and they did not go through world-shattering cataclysms, but even then, with five thousand years to work with, I'd think the building of a new world order should be well on its way.
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That's assuming there's still a world left to rebuild, and people to rebuild it. We could always use the stuff I posted: the world simply would not cooperate (i.e. nothing would grow) for the longest time. People struggle just to get by a single day, so they can't exactly focus on rebuilding. Even then their numbers thinned, so later on it was an even harder struggle to survive.
Basically, my point is this: how much society can get done is largely dependent on the conditions surrounding them. And, us being worldcrafters of a sort, we can alter those conditions to extend or shorten certain periods as necessary, am i right? 
Ah, but that is the beauty of fate's godstone. It does not restore the status quo in the world per se, it restores the status quo in people's minds. Certainly, yes, at around 100 years after the war even, people would have forgotten. I don't contest that. But the shattering of fate's godstone rekindles the flames of long-buried emotions and memories. Suddenly they remember the war and everything that's happened as clearly as it had happened just the other day.
You wonder if the memory of the war is fresh? You bet it is! Hell, it's so fresh it sparked 1000 years of progress, all with the goal of retribution in mind... and to this day, people remember. They know that they forgot once. They swore they would never forget again... or at least, it could wait until justice has been served.
Why does fate's godstone act like this? It could be fate at work, or it could be the goddess' will to have it do so, expending all her power to have her godstone react as such (and she would have had an idea that this would happen, naturally; you know, goddess of fate and all). For now, it acts this way because we say so. Details later, as usual.
As for people contesting the truth of the Godfall War, they've largely been disproven. Adventuring parties have visited and revisited the cave of fate many times, and have studied what few shards of fate's godstone they could find. Modern magic users, both arcane and divine, have largely confirmed the story that people suddenly remembered as fact. As such the story is a widely accepted truth. Sure there are a few conspiracy theorists here and there, but well, can't help that.
So ultimately, there you go. The motivation for people acting as they do is attributed to, well, fate. The mortals must finish what the gods started. |
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:33 pm
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:43 pm
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban
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Well, I guess part of the thing I wanted was the sense of mortal independence. The gods are gone, and there's no one to rely on, but that also means that mortals are free to be whatever they choose to be. The Fate godstone angle just seems to be the total opposite of that, in a sense, locking us down into the pattern of repeating the Godfall war.
Also...everyone is born with memories of Godfall?
Am more of a partisan for city-states, I think, as the post-apocalyptic landscape would inhibit inter-community trade, communications, etc.
Am very skeptical also of the slow pace of military thinking. Even granting that only a thousand years have passed since the shattering of the fatestone, combat and tactics by its very nature is adaptable. If you keep on playing by the book, then someone else is going to do something unexpected, and you die.
Am working out what a shorter era would mean in dates. Rough draft.
0 Godfall
0-50 Total collapse and devastation
50-100 Survivors begin to encounter each other, fighting over scarce resources like water, wood, and shelter. First generation human survivors of Godfall die.
100-200 Primitive Post-Collapse societies emerge around few "habitable" locations such as water holes, arable land. All else is wasteland.
200 First Godstones found. Divine powers, begin to be unlocked.
250-300 Formation of the first Godstone-centric city-states, their powers limited by the nature of their godstones and the radius of their divine auras.
300-500 Post-Collapse societies begin to stabilize at the tribal and city-state levels.
The picture that comes to mind is far more of a brawny sort of sword and sorcery setting, ala early pulp fiction, Conan-esque. |
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Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:03 pm
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus
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| Quote: |
| Also...everyone is born with memories of Godfall?
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This has potential. Everyone born is a reincarnated soul? There's no afterlife?
And also, if everyone is born with parts of knowledge from its previous life I might agree why civilization recovered that fast.
One reason that I think 500 years is too short is because of wars of scarce resources. Resources are scarce thus recovering is hard. And with the existence of wars, constant war means constant destruction. Only the dominant group would have the opportunity to recover. Also, war requires resources, which are scarce in the first place.
War = resource goes to war.
No War = part of resource goes to army, part goes to reconstruction, education, research, etc.
500 years from rubble to city-state. Please state how much destruction had happened during the GOdfall war. |
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solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:26 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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The real-world anologue doesn't work, coz this isn't the real world. And besides, the fall of Rome is nothing compared to the Kal-Dathra. Gods died. If mortal screw-ups like that takes 500 years to recover, imagine something of this magnitude.
And what's wrong with a wizard not believing the GFW? Or the gods?Many wizards in standard Greyhawk have that attitude anyway. It's common to wizards, 500 or 5000 years in the future.
I sort of agree with Revan on the military, though. I dunno, random hacking just feels...off. |
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:34 pm
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
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On the arcanist's comment on GFW:
5000 years is less than 10 generations of elves. 2-3 generations of dragons. It is not that long to other beings. There are other perspectives other than that arcanist's point of view. Unless all that remains are creatures with short lifespans GFW won't be remembered as mere myths, especially with the existence of godstones. |
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:35 pm
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Ancient Dragon
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 857
Location: The Happy Hunting Grounds
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Yes, even in the very, very ancient times (i.e. ice age), human beings or their older equivalents have already had a semblance of military tactics. Not enough to go to an all out war, but enough to efficiently hunt down and kill an adult-sized mammoth.
But then, in a world where almost everything is dead, there should have been no reason to fight against each other. It would have only dwindles their resources even further. =/ They might have actually forgotten how to fight. |
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"I should mug people to this song. I'll get so many silver points." -Random youtuber
"LOL! If someone mugged me while this song was playing, I would know that they meant business. " -another random youtuber |
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:55 pm
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Goderator
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:33 am
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban
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| BJ wrote: |
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The real-world anologue doesn't work, coz this isn't the real world. And besides, the fall of Rome is nothing compared to the Kal-Dathra. Gods died. If mortal screw-ups like that takes 500 years to recover, imagine something of this magnitude.
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Who said the world has already healed  ? It's still a terrible world out there, what with the earth splitting open to let loose demonic marauders, the sunstorms that scorch the land, the arcane winds that play merry hell with spellcasting and agriculture, and the storms that savage the few ships and boats that dare the waters. Bands of slavers, scavengers, and degenerate cannibals stalk the wastelands, while the few settlements war with each other for food, water, arable land, and godstones.
The thing is, it still has to be somewhat plausible, starting from some basis of reality before we FUBAR it. Those (fall of Rome) seem to be the events that seem roughly analogous, though perhaps the fall of the classic Maya might also be an interesting period to reference.
Speaking of dragons, we still need an idea for what these guys are to the setting besides your average big badass treasure guardian.
Also, the warband method of combat is more plausible earlier on, rather than later.
| TE Lawrence (roughly) wrote: |
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"With more than two thousand years of examples behind us, we have no excuses when fighting, not to fight well." (or something like that. Must reference Empire Deluxe strat guide)
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That much is at least an indicator of how quickly (humanity at least. I don't know how retarded our poor saps are going to be.) warfare can be refined to from warbands to disciplined armies.
BTW, who's seeking revenge? The Gods? The humans suddenly recall the history of Godfall. So? Why should they go out and do something about some past, long-ago war when they can take the knowledge and power revealed to them to change the present?
Admittedly, 2-500 years also begins to feel cramped, and the original ~1000 begins to recommend itself again. |
Last edited by Revan on Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:09 am
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:16 am
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Lord of Pwnage
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 1920
Location: Zero
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If we'll be using the fall of Rome as an analog, we should have minimum 1000 years. What they suffered is incomparable to the loss of all their gods.
As for the evolution of military tactics... in retrospect, you guys are right. If the fatestone restores the status quo in people's minds, war tactics should be more or less the same then. So let's retcon my original statement and stick with the new one.
The revenge thing I've already mentioned. This is a compulsion left by the goddess of fate herself, who could only think of revenge in her last living moments. Also, as I've said before, godstones do not command so much as suggest. The fatestone is no different: it presents all that has happened in the past, reminding people of the goddess' preferred course of action, but in no way does it demand absolute obedience to the path. Can I help it that most mortals are weak-willed? So no, I don't think this hampers mortal independence by much.
I'm actually not too particular about the dates. If you guys want to divide the number of years by ten, or by five, or whatever, then it still works out. Again, the main thing to remember about my idea is that it is flexible, and can be altered as appropriate to meet the group's needs.
So the real question here is this: what, exactly, are the group's needs? |
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:12 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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| Revan wrote: |
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Who said the world has already healed :Twisted Evil: ?
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I dunno. Not me.
500 is too short. 5000 is too long. (500+5000)/2=2750. Round down to 2500 years.
Basically, I'm saying the goderator's time schedule is best.
If we don't settle this soon, I propose a poll. |
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