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<  In Discussion  ~  October19: Discussion (Supertotoy, BJ)
BJ
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:50 pm  Reply with quote
He Who Founds Wyrmlings


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa

Quote:
Alvin John Mayor: yep
Alvin John Mayor: I've posted my questions on Revan's godstones
Alvin John Mayor: any ideas on the fey already?
Billy Recio: lots
Billy Recio: currently
Billy Recio: im thinking the fae are the
Alvin John Mayor: trouble organizing then...
Billy Recio: first to discover godstones
Billy Recio: the queens of the seelie and unseelie, at least
Alvin John Mayor: nabasa mo na ba ung questions ko?
Billy Recio: yup
Alvin John Mayor: what do you think?
Alvin John Mayor: sa tingin ko medyo insidious ang godstones e
Billy Recio: note, before i say anything else
Billy Recio: that the "fragment of the gods" thing
Billy Recio: has disturbed my 3.5 beliefs since day 1


Quote:
Billy Recio:
Alvin John Mayor: yup
Billy Recio: i mean, a fragment of a god is at least artifact level power
Alvin John Mayor: if indeed we were able to make an artifact to destroy the gods, then we have been playing to a higher being all along...
Billy Recio: if i follow the example of the gith incursion campaign
Alvin John Mayor: yes, and a godstone should be like a divine focus...


Quote:
Alvin John Mayor: maybe researches have discovered a way to harness the power of a godstone
Alvin John Mayor: but not carry a godstone in itself
Alvin John Mayor: shouldn't be a divine focus is what I mean
Billy Recio: yes
Billy Recio: it releases potential, from how i understand phil
Billy Recio: "These strange (rocks/crystals) could unlock hidden reservoirs of power, allowing mortals to once again channel the powers of the divine"
Alvin John Mayor: "potential" or god-influence?
Billy Recio: ah. im beginning to understand your concern
Billy Recio: the whispers of the dead gods are heard from these stones...
Billy Recio:
Alvin John Mayor: because, going back to original 3.5, killing a god has a significant backlash on all the followers
Billy Recio: that's a creepy will save dc in itself
Alvin John Mayor: it is not dead that does not die, on strange eons even death may die...
Alvin John Mayor: CotC stuff..
Alvin John Mayor:
Billy Recio: ive noticed
Billy Recio:
Billy Recio: in any case, we should be clear (us COPALS, at least), at exactly what the godstones are, at least
Alvin John Mayor: yep
Alvin John Mayor: it shouldn't be a secret for us... for us to truly understand its mechanics
Alvin John Mayor: however, I suggest that it be revealed to a select few, to prevent RP problems
Billy Recio: that won't do. unless xtian starts handing out positions, soon
Alvin John Mayor: yes...
Alvin John Mayor: going back... I assume that Phil does make the clerics mad...
Alvin John Mayor: crazy is what I mean
Billy Recio: but does it matter? they're all dead now, after all...
Alvin John Mayor: yes... they should be insane, therefore losing all divine knowledge
Alvin John Mayor: and power. For those who are able to harness it, has it not been revealed by the godstones themselves?
Billy Recio: ahhh.point.
Alvin John Mayor: if each godstone has a "mind" or god-essence, they should be wanting to come back, whispering to its bearer, insidiously enticing it to do its bidding with the promise of power
Alvin John Mayor: especially true in an evil god, a scheme to place all the "harmonic" godstones together should be a plausible scheme in itself
Billy Recio: perhaps, we should make the gods "dead-dead"
Billy Recio: meaning, they have no influence at all, unless resurrected somehow..
Alvin John Mayor: could be, but we're talking about god things here.
Billy Recio: but they're dead
Billy Recio: what's the fun of being dead
Billy Recio: if you can still talk anyway?
Billy Recio: you just lose power, but you still exist.
Alvin John Mayor: that's the point
Alvin John Mayor: but the fact is, mortals can still draw power from your essence
Alvin John Mayor: a tiny fragment of which is so powerful, they use it to power their spells near infinitely
Alvin John Mayor: now having a master godstone... that's another matter


Quote:
Alvin John Mayor: quoting Revan: The first wielders of these godstones used their power to rise to power and greatness, becoming paragons of virtue, terrible warlords, messianic leaders, and builders of empires.
Billy Recio: no. they don't use it to power their spells infinitely. to be a level 1 cleric, you need years of training in the clergy. then, even then, you can cast only a select number of spells a day. Only after years, decades can you even hope to reach 11th level (superheroic)
Alvin John Mayor: assuming that you go through your levels, and attain heights of power, what do you still use to cast your spells? a godstone
Alvin John Mayor: the same teenie-weenie godstone that you've used since level 1 assuming that it doesn't get destroyed before that happens
Billy Recio: yes, which is just the same as a divine focus
Alvin John Mayor: and it doesn't even need to be replenished
Alvin John Mayor: or ok, replenished through attunement to the master godstone
Billy Recio: that's what the bigger lunks of stone are for.
Billy Recio: teka.
Billy Recio: what if
Billy Recio: the smaller godstones aren't godstones at all?
Billy Recio: but a focus to contain minimal amounts of god power?
Alvin John Mayor: ah... that's an interesting point
Alvin John Mayor: a true godstone
Billy Recio: these powers, in turn, are taken from the big godstones
Alvin John Mayor: the master godstone
Alvin John Mayor: the master godstone would be like a nuclear reactor of some sort
Alvin John Mayor: self-replenishing in terms of power
Billy Recio: limitless, even.
Billy Recio: when first discovered, it took the wizards no time at all
Billy Recio: to deduce that it is a font of power
Alvin John Mayor: yep
Billy Recio: but using it directly
Billy Recio: destroyed the upstarts, body and soul
Alvin John Mayor: that's good
Billy Recio: they had to find a way to contain small amounts of power, travel size


Quote:
Billy Recio:
Alvin John Mayor: then there are mutations...
Billy Recio: abominations?
Alvin John Mayor: near the master godstones power are creatures not even human...
Alvin John Mayor: permanently deformed and bended to the will of the master godstone
Alvin John Mayor: quite right
Alvin John Mayor: if these beings cater to the re-ascendance of the trapped entity, no one really knows
Billy Recio: hmm. want to repost this discussion on COPAL?
Alvin John Mayor: sure thing
Alvin John Mayor: this would help Revan a lot
Alvin John Mayor: quoting Revan: They point to the psychological instabilities that seem to crop up among those who are constantly exposed to the massive Master Godstones as proof that these divine energies are dangerous. Dragons, empires, megalomaniacs, fanatic devotees of the Old Gods, and latter-day Liberators all seek to claim, create, or destroy these items for their own ends.
Alvin John Mayor: a good proof that a godstone is indeed that psychically active

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BJ
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:33 pm  Reply with quote
He Who Founds Wyrmlings


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa

Quote:
Billy Recio: ok. im still skeptical about the godstones having sentience, thoug.
Alvin John Mayor: gods being far intelligent and wise than a mere mortal, may have decided that this is better than losing...
Alvin John Mayor: all culminating in a future Armageddon, killing all divinity completely, and losing all that power
Billy Recio: evil. the mortals figured out a way to kill us, so we die and wait for their descendants to stupidly ressurect us?
Alvin John Mayor: yep
Alvin John Mayor: since ten millenia is too long for any mortal to even remember
Billy Recio: wow. apparently them gods are not good aligned. none of them.
Alvin John Mayor: and I doubt that the mortals have the time to concoct an artifact that would kill the divine that completely
Alvin John Mayor: trying to survive is not evil
Billy Recio: wait, iirc, the artifacts were given to them by the liberators. they didn't craft those themselves
Alvin John Mayor: who were the liberators then, immortals???
Alvin John Mayor: I'd bet that they're mortal...
Alvin John Mayor: and that they died with the knowledge of the artifact


Quote:
Billy Recio: outsiders. the first. devils? alala ko kinuwento ni phil yan. eh
Billy Recio: i just can't remember...
Billy Recio:
Alvin John Mayor: check Revan's creation story
Alvin John Mayor: well, liberators were immortals..
Billy Recio: yup, i checked as well..
Alvin John Mayor: but this doesn't make sense...
Alvin John Mayor: hm... liberators, clearly were not lawful evil in alignment
Alvin John Mayor: rather lawful neutral
Alvin John Mayor: are liberators created beings?
Billy Recio: yup, check beginning
Billy Recio: they were Eternals
Billy Recio: the first things them gods created
Alvin John Mayor: yep read it...
Alvin John Mayor: where are these eternals now?
Alvin John Mayor: couldn't they lord it over, unless again, they are neutral...
Billy Recio: check "the present"
Alvin John Mayor: all of them would be neutral in that sense
Alvin John Mayor: well, not really
Billy Recio: nope, they split into factions. some became demons, others became devils, yet others (which i do not approve of) became fae
Alvin John Mayor: I see... then these godstones are like the eternals in the sense that they are representations of the divine
Alvin John Mayor: but even closer than creation itself
Alvin John Mayor: since these stones were part of the god
Billy Recio: ah, but gods didn't necessarily create the world...
Billy Recio: Razz
Alvin John Mayor: i know that
Alvin John Mayor: but at least they created the eternals
Alvin John Mayor: even though they didn't create themselves, they should have some harmony with each other
Alvin John Mayor: each part breeding evil, chaos, deceit, good, etc...
Alvin John Mayor: they were once part of the god, the penultimate being representing the idea of the universe itself


Quote:
Billy Recio: im not sure i get what you're getting at, here..
Alvin John Mayor: my point is that, being once a part of a god and all, they are, for a fact, psychichally active. Sentience? Let's just say that it functions more like a psicrystal...
Alvin John Mayor: but rather, it's psicrystal would eventually be you...
Alvin John Mayor:
Alvin John Mayor: being much more powerful than your mortal mind...
Alvin John Mayor: a "good" godstone should at first, make you feel irritated towards evil, then as your power grows, so does your zeal
Alvin John Mayor: and so will the godstone's power grow... the more good you do, the more it fuels that essence.
Alvin John Mayor: get my point?
Billy Recio: gets. but, -->my point is that, being once a part of a god and all, they are, for a fact, psychichally active
Billy Recio: this i do not agree with
Alvin John Mayor: well... suppose that a god is dead-dead
Alvin John Mayor: then you have a godstone right there.
Alvin John Mayor: but the godstone has the characteristics of the god it was once a part of, right?
Billy Recio: agreed..
Alvin John Mayor: being a representations of an idea, and powerful, godstones are also imbued with a fragment of the god's thoughts and power, is this agreeable?
Billy Recio: nope. the hair of Heironeus isn't necessarily an embodiment of valor and gallantry.
Billy Recio: i get where you're coming from, though
Billy Recio: i just need to think of the hand and eye of vecna, and i get what you mean.
Alvin John Mayor: but a hair of Heironeous isn't just a hair of Heironeous, since Heironeous wasn't born a mortal...
Alvin John Mayor: every fabric of being of a god, is theoretically imbued with his inner magic
Alvin John Mayor: but are not gods in themselves, nor are they heironeous...
Billy Recio: understandably. then perhaps the strand of hair can't be cut, even with adamantine. Tying it to your own hair could probably give you +16str. but it doesn't necessarily have to start talking..
Alvin John Mayor: moreover, these godparts have considerable penalties to characters with the opposing alignment

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BJ
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:41 pm  Reply with quote
He Who Founds Wyrmlings


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa

Quote:
Alvin John Mayor: heck, even the feces of demogorgon could mean something...
Alvin John Mayor: but then again, demo is not a god..
Billy Recio: the feces of demogorgon will become an ooze with the stats of FC1 jubilex, except with maximum hp.
Alvin John Mayor: really? Smile)
Alvin John Mayor: =))
Billy Recio: that's what i would do, if i ever make demo crap. he's an outsider without normal metabolism, though.
Billy Recio: =))
Billy Recio: in any case, i don't think we'll agree on that part.
Billy Recio: hopefully the others read and give their own opinions.
Billy Recio: have to go soon.
Billy Recio: still need to post other stuff.
Alvin John Mayor: well... my ideas will become refined later on, and hopefully, people will find it plausible, if not entirely acceptable...
Billy Recio: yeah. make a believer out of me.
Billy Recio: (damn, if they read this, that sounded like a totally brokeback moment)
Alvin John Mayor: Smile)
Billy Recio: tama na nga to..

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Revan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:30 am  Reply with quote
Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban

Okay, still reading through these, but offhand points:

-I like the idea of limiting godstones to Master Stones, instead of hundreds of shards. The advantage of this is that they become much more special and powerful.

-Also, the gods are dead. Dead-dead. None of that "It is not dead that can eternal lie..." stuff. Final Dead, unless pieced together.

-The godstones are not sentient. They may influence certain emotional traits, urges, etc, but no clear, malevolent/enlightened intelligence rests within the center of each godstone. The godstones themselves just happen to function easier in certain ways. (War attuned godstones providing War and Protection domains, for example)

-As for the nature of Gods in this setting, I'm thinking more along the lines of an Olympian/Norse kind of pantheon, with gods being more anthromorphic (especially after gaining the essence of mortal faith, becoming more human-like). They were immensely powerful beings, but still possible to outwit or fool. As for divine alignments, there may even have been a few who may have qualified as "good", but remember that mortals were viewed as cattle/slaves/power sources. These good-aligned gods would have taken care of and perhaps defended their own mortal herds, but like whatever "good" noblemen there were in the French Revolution, they were lumped in along with the bad and destroyed.

-Liberators: disaffected faction of Eternals who grew to sympathize with the plight of the Secondborn to the point of attempting to raise the Secondborn from tyranny. When the gods and the Loyalists clamped down, the altruistic attempts of the Liberators became the spark of open warfare. They taught most of what is considered civilization to the mortals (writing, metallurgy, stonecraft, arcana, etc.) and would later on provide them with the artifacts that could be used by Mortals to bring down the gods.

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Xtian
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:10 am  Reply with quote
Goderator


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus

D&D gods are formed by faith and their appearance depend on their believers. Norse gods look like humans because their believers believe they look that way. The same is true for orc gods, elf gods, etc.

However, D&D canon speaking, on the debate whether believers created gods or gods created believers is not answered. It is like a chicken and an egg debate.

Maybe the reason the gods are dead-dead and can't be resurrected is because: (note that some of these have assumptions)
a. Place of death. They got killed on their own homes. Archetypal deity death.
b. Special death. Upon their deaths their connections to faith were also severed. Since they were dependent on worship they couldn't be resurrected.
c. Lack of worshippers. Nobody worships them anymore. Or, not enough worshippers to rekindle their life spark. Wars keep population at bay.
f. Deity-like powers. Some creatures rival the powers of deities.
e. As you mentioned, artifacts! Also archetypal.

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