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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: Changes? |
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I think certain things have to be changed for modern:
*Soldiers should have good BA. Martial Artists should have average BA (as the monk from DnD). In fact, I think AdC's that resembles rogues, monks should have average BA, while AdC's that resemble fighters should have good BA...
*DR for certain monsters should be remodelled as 3.5
*Guns should hurt. Really, really hurt. So maybe the exploding reroll should be applied to guns...
*Urban Arcana: Incantations should have some sort of limit per day...
Any other suggestions?
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 1920 |
| Location: Zero |
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I don't agree regarding the guns. I mean, sure gunshots should hurt, but a sword to the gut delivered with furious intensity hurts just as badly. Though, I guess it depends on the gun, really, but then again, that's why some have higher damage capacities than others.
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 1552 |
| Location: Korriban |
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Watch Nat Geo's Naked Science feature on ballistics. Guns should have a serious edge over melee.
Offhand, as I've pointed out to BJ, I don't like the bonus feat selections for most of the classes, as they don't seem to make a lot of sense. Why doesn't the Fast Hero get Dodge in its list? Why does the Charismatic Hero get Dodge and Agile Riposte (which seem more fast hero in flavor)? They just look too limited and arbitrary. I'd recommend them to be just bonus feat slots for any feat that the players meet the prereqs for, as long as the DM agrees. Then again, I maybe placing too much faith when I trust the players to pick a feat that is flavorful for the character (imagine a Smart Hero using this tweak to take Power Attack in the Smart Hero's bonus feat slot...then again, not too smart of a move).
Another tweak I like in the firearms category is from the Ghost In The Shell D20 project, namely their custom Burst Fire variant.
| Quote: | B U R S T F I R E
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Advanced Firearms Proficiency.
Benefit: When using an automatic firearm with at least five bullets loaded, the character may fire a short burst as a single attack against a single target. The character receives EITHER a –4 penalty on the attack roll, but deals +2 dice of damage OR a +2 to the combat roll without additional dice damade. Firing a burst expends five bullets and can only be done if the weapon has five bullets in it.
Normal: Autofire uses ten bullets, targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area, and can’t be aimed at a specific target. Without this feat, if a character attempts an autofire attack at a specific target, it simply counts as a normal attack and all the extra bullets are wasted.
Special: If the firearm has a three-round burst setting, firing a burst expends three bullets instead of five and can be used if the weapon has only three bullets in it. |
The Wisdom pre-req of Burst Fire feels wonky.
I whole-heartedly agree with the tweaks to Soldier, but I'm not so sure about the Martial Artist.
Suggestions for PrC's and AdC's that can work in a standard modern setting?:
-D20 Future
Ambassador, Dreadnought, Engineer, Explorer, Field Officer, Swindler, Tracer
-D20 Past
Suggested incorporation:
-Ultramodern Firearms by Green Ronin. Very nice features table and gun feats
-Weapons Locker by WotC. Guns, guns, and even more guns than above.
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | *Soldiers should have good BA. Martial Artists should have average BA (as the monk from DnD). In fact, I think AdC's that resembles rogues, monks should have average BA, while AdC's that resemble fighters should have good BA... |
Soldier and Martial Artist are both fine as it is.
BAB represents a class' martial prowess and a martial artist has more martial arts training than a soldier. Soldiers know martial arts but not as very dedicated martial artists, hence medium BAB. Soldiers on the other hand are more skillful than a martial artist.
D&D monk on the other hand is skillful, hence, not as good as the fighter in terms of fighting. But monks have more time for skills, hence, more skills. fighters may lack that time as they focus more on fighting.
And do not mix D&D and d20 Modern. The system is similar but they have different power levels.
| Quote: | | *DR for certain monsters should be remodelled as 3.5 |
Why?
| Quote: | | *Guns should hurt. Really, really hurt. So maybe the exploding reroll should be applied to guns... |
Getting stab by a dagger hurts. And getting pierced by a long spear also hurts. Guns hurt and common guns do average of 7 damage. More than enough to drop anyone unconscious then die in few seconds.
| Quote: | | Watch Nat Geo's Naked Science feature on ballistics. |
I've watched this.
| Quote: | | Guns should have a serious edge over melee. |
d20 modern rules covered this pretty well. Base damage of most guns are higher than more weapon in D&D. ^__^
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't agree regarding the guns. I mean, sure gunshots should hurt, but a sword to the gut delivered with furious intensity hurts just as badly. Though, I guess it depends on the gun, really, but then again, that's why some have higher damage capacities than others. |
I agree with you on this but the designers of the rules did not, as I posted above, guns on average do more damage than most medium sized weapons.
I tried to research the net on bullet velocity and mass and tried to compute total energy, correlation to damage, and other possibly usable figures. I was also trying to do it with arrows. I had my data with bullets then I realized that in D&D, you can make an arrow hit a target at 100 miles away under six seconds and the damage is still 1d8. You can make an arrow deal 1d8+50+10d6sneak attack+5d6 skirmish at a target less than 5 feet, making the travel time less a second.
I just realized that I tried to use real-life physics on a fantasy game. Argh.
Back on the topic, a dagger is as deadly as a bullet or a steel chair. The system is fine as is for me.
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 1552 |
| Location: Korriban |
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Xtian wrote: | | Back on the topic, a dagger is as deadly as a bullet or a steel chair. The system is fine as is for me. |
I disagree on damage. A melee D&D (or d20 modern for that matter) weapon is more deadly (damage wise) due to Strength modifiers. A fighter with a 20 strength (which is not that unusual) using a non-magical greatsword deals 2d6+7 damage, which medians out at 14 points of damage. A soldier with an M-16 deals 2d8 damage, which medians out at 9 damage. An archer with a 20 strength and using a mighty longbow deals 1d8+5 damage, which medians to 9, equaling the soldier's M-16.
D&D weapon modeling seems to give the edge to melee and muscle-powered weapons.
EDIT:
Wokey, what am I saying? Guns will tend to give you better range, are more portable, and double tap, burstfire, and autofire give you some interesting options. Still, modern firearms still don't quite look deadly enough. Okay, maybe I'm thinking in terms of D&D, but one of the original goals of the d20 modern project was to make a system that was similar, comparable, and compatible with the standard d&d rules while retaining modern world flavor and realities.
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Guns will tend to give you better range, are more portable, and double tap, burstfire, and autofire give you some interesting options. |
Made my mind rolling. Damn you Pepsi Max.
Archer with ring of polymorh and greater celerity.
BAB 20 (4 arrows)
Rapid shot. (1)
Haste. (1)
Polymorph into Arrow demon. (*2)
Splitting property. (*2)
Greater celerity. (*2)
=48 arrows.
spellcaster/master transmogrifist.
BAB 20 (4 arrows, via limited wish)
Rapid shot. (1)
Haste. (1)
Polymorph into Arrow demon. (*2)
Infinite variety with avatar of demogorgon (*2)
Splitting property. (*2)
Greater celerity. (*2)
=96 arrows.
epic spellcaster:
transforms in a hecatoncaires (sp?)
100 hands ---> 50 bows.
BAB (*4 by limited wish duplicating divine power)
haste (+1)
splitting property (*2)
greater celerity (*2)
=804 arrows. It can summon another, possibly with same build.
=1608 arrows.
It gets better with class levels.
On the discussion:
| Quote: | | A fighter with a 20 strength |
Super high for a human. An average human will have 10-11 strength, annd assuming bell curve, many will have below the value (young and oldies) and many will have higher value (physically active youth). Still, average great sword value is 7 points of damage. But the wielder must be proficient to use it effectively. A proficient wielder of greatsword could possibly maim limbs with it as oppose to bullets turning flesh into mashed potatoes.
| Quote: | | but one of the original goals of the d20 modern project was to make a system that was similar, comparable, and compatible with the standard d&d rules while retaining modern world flavor and realities. |
I tend to agree with this on low levels. On high levels, I disagree.
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | BAB represents a class' martial prowess... |
I disagree. Simply put, BA should represent your ability to hit. as it is, a Martial artist wielding a gun can hit better than a soldier. That's just wrong.
Martial Artists have good BA because 3.0 monks have good BA. It's that simple. That's why I want it downgraded to ave BA.
| Quote: | Soldiers on the other hand are more skillful than a martial artist.
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Whu-at?  Let me double check Revan's modern book when I get back home. Then i'll get back in touch.
**********
I concede on the guns. you guys are right.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | DR for certain monsters should be remodelled as 3.5 |
Why?
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This one's selfish. I wasnever comfy with 3.0 DR. The DR values are usually very high, while the bypass mechanic (ie, X/+3, for example) is just weird to me. Maybe this is largely because I started at 3.5, but hey, I still think that Demons should have DR/cold iron...
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supertotoy
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Old Dragon
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| Joined: 23 Mar 2007 |
| Posts: 413 |
| Location: Limbo |
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I agree on Xtian about the average strength of humans... Maybe 10-12 on average. So that makes 2d6+1 (about 6-7 damage). 18 and above strength are already considered superhuman, and if I remember correctly, D&D translation of Hercules would be about strength 20.
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Master Wayne, you've just been PWNED! |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I disagree. Simply put, BA should represent your ability to hit. |
Flavor-wise, it is the characters ability to hit. More training means better at hitting.
| Quote: | | as it is, a Martial artist wielding a gun can hit better than a soldier. That's just wrong. |
Assuming the martial artist is proficient with the gun. As default, martial artists are not proficient with guns.
A martial artist who is proficient with guns can hit better than a soldier. The game assumes the martial artist trains with his guns, thus he can hit better.
Soldiers get weapon focus with their choice of weapon. They also get weapon specialization, improved critical, greater weapon specialization, and critical strike.
A martial artist may have higher attack bonus than a soldier or even a gunslinger but still sucks with gun. There are other criteria as to determine who is 'better' at using guns other than BAB.
| Quote: | | Martial Artists have good BA because 3.0 monks have good BA. It's that simple. That's why I want it downgraded to ave BA. |
But a monk is different from martial artist. They have similarities but no, it does not warrant reducing its base attack bonus.
3.0 monk had average attack bonus. You can download 3.0 srd by searching google.
| Quote: | | Let me double check Revan's modern book when I get back home. Then i'll get back in touch. |
| soldier, d20 modern wrote: | | Skill Points at Each Level: 5 + Int modifier. |
| martial artist, d20 modern wrote: | | Skill Points at Each Level: 3 + Int modifier. |
| Quote: | | This one's selfish. I wasnever comfy with 3.0 DR. The DR values are usually very high, while the bypass mechanic (ie, X/+3, for example) is just weird to me. Maybe this is largely because I started at 3.5, but hey, I still think that Demons should have DR/cold iron... |
Ok ...
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | soldier, d20 modern wrote:
Skill Points at Each Level: 5 + Int modifier.
martial artist, d20 modern wrote:
Skill Points at Each Level: 3 + Int modifier.
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Ok... 
Yes, the soldier will still be better than a Martial Artist with guns because of all the bonuses. But, it doesn't really mean anything if he can't hit...
And I'm trusting Revan on this one. A high level soldier won't hit as often as he's supposed to be, accdg to him (Correct me if I misinterpreted you on our talks at the tambayan, Rev)
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I'm trusting Revan on this one. A high level soldier won't hit as often as he's supposed to be, accdg to him (Correct me if I misinterpreted you on our talks at the tambayan, Rev) |
If you want to hit, go with gunslinger. Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and sharp shooting.
Soldiers are not 'designed' to be very good with hitting things accurately. A theoretical class that is dedicated to hitting things with guns (if you don't want gunslinger) is reserved for that.
| Quote: | | A high level soldier won't hit as often as he's supposed to be, |
What is he supposed to be targetting?
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:13 am Post subject: |
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What's common between Keannu Reeves, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris, and Steven Segal?
They used their awesome martial arts techniques to kick their elite rifle wielding enemies to half-way around the globe.
So I think that's one reason. In modern action setting, martial arts pwn guns. It looks cooler if the protagonist wields a katana.
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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