hobbygamers ~ View topic - Tech-team: Auto-saves

This is a proposed House Rule. I need votes from the tech team (boy_bakal, oghma, BJ, erwin):

1) Regardless of penalties, eveyone automatically passes a saving throw on a natural roll of 20.
2) Elite monsters automatically pass a saving throw on a natural roll of 19-20, regardless of penalties.
3) Solo monsters automatically pass a saving throw on a natural roll of 18-20, regardless of penalties.

(Originally, I thought of elites passing on 18-20, and solos passing on 15-20, but I think this version smooths out better. It does not invalidate, but still nerfs penalty-stacking.)

As we approach paragon, I've noticed that save-stacking will get problematic. With the current books available to us, you can stack effects to ridiculous amounts by 14th level. While I doubt anyone will actually build a character like that, it's better to be safe. Wink

Before you vote, I would like to hear your opinion on why or why not this is a good idea. Do not vote until I say so.

So, tech-team! Sound off! Very Happy

(Other COPALs may contribute their opinion, too, if they wish. But the tech team will do the voting.)

Okay, BJ's been filling me in on some of the reasoning behind this tweak after looking at some discussions concerning Orb of Imposition and impossible saves (even for Solos).

I don't have a vote, but I'd like to sound off anyway.

The saving throw system is in general sound, except for hyperoptimized teams that can generate incredible levels of penalties using Orb of Imposition. It can make it literally impossible to save, as penalties stack. Is this a problem? It is on Solos (and to a lesser extent Elites). Solos, especially BBEGs are meant to be credible threats to a party, and they are not a credible threat if they can be dropped easily with a save spell combined with hyperOrb. I'm not saying that Solos should be invincible, but that they should be able to generate a credible challenge against even hyper builds.

Now, these tweaks don't really change much. Variant 1 at least allows everyone to save on a 20, much like anyone can hit, even for paltry effect, on a 20 (or miss on a 1). This will allow shoot-the-moon saves for enemy monsters. Variants 2 & 3 give Elites and Solos respectively the chance to save even against hyper builds. Note however that this is only a "chance to save", not a guaranteed save. At best, when a player throws a super combo on the BBEG, the BBEG gets at least a 15% chance to save. It's an incredible reduction from 80% save chance, but infinitely higher than a 0% chance that a hyperbuild can throw at it.

It's tech team's call, but I'm all for it.

Critical pass on saves.

I'm all too it, since I've actually seen such build having uber penalties on saves.

Though I'd like to propose another, in regards with that:

1.b) Regardless of bonuses, everyone automatically fails a saving throw on a natural roll of 1.

Critical failure on saves.

I think it's to even it out. If there's a critical pass, there should be a critical fail. (just like attack rolls)

Ah. But, don't people auto-fail on a 1 anyway? I've yet to see a +9 bonus to saves.

But if there is one I'm not aware of, then by all means, that works too.

All right. Just waiting on boy_bakal and oghma.

Stunlocks don't work against multi-headed creatures though. =/ (That fight with the hydra scared me S**tless)

My take on saves for solos, 15% chance is too low. maybe upping it to a 20% chance (17-20) might work.

I'll consider the 20%, but am skeptical about the auto-fail. Auto-fails penalize the players's ingenuity, as opposed to auto-saves, which give hopeless monsters a chance.

Time to vote, tech team! I will abstain, so that we don't get a tie.
Also, I factored in oghma's proposal:

I vote No.

You should vote properly! Confused

Party-pooper. Razz

(but yeah, that's one vote Twisted Evil

, one vote Evil or Very Mad

. boy_bakal decides the future of this houserule)

I vote

.

At least, I assume Evil or Very Mad

means "no".

Oh well, I guess the house rule is vetoed.

Okay, then we're back to the drawing board.

erwin and b_b, what do you not like about the rule? Do you think we should tweak it some more, or do you not like the idea of messing with it at all?

Either way, we have to address this somehow. When we get to paragon level, you can already pump the penalty to -16, which makes wizard save ends spells permanent. At the same time, directly changing the orb feels like too much of a fix.

What I liked about our house rule is that it doesn't really change too much. Solos still pass most of the time on a 17-20. Elite's still normally pass on a 19. Everybody still passes on a 20.

So, what are your counter-proposals? Or why do you think should we not change it?

I say there's a auto-pass, there should be an auto-fail. Just like attack rolls.

Alternatively, since most likely PCs we'll be using their uber penalties on elites and solos, let's just give them the autosaves, and not to normal enemies and PCs.

I find the alternative intriguing. That way, a DM will be the only one to have big problems with it. I'm neither for it nor against it at this stage.

I still do not like the concept of auto-fail, otoh. But I'm starting to warm up to the idea.

How about you, boy_bakal? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

My biggest problem with the house rule atm is that I think we're overestimating the orbizard. Yes, I'm aware saves can reach exorbitant penalties, but so many monsters are damn near unaffected by the ever-popular stun that you'll never run out of good, usable solos anyway. I assume that's the point of discussion, here; elites and others always travel in groups, so it's usually ok to have one out of the picture while the others beat down the party.

It just feels to me that we're giving the wizard player the short end of the stick here. I'm not saying this purely because I have a wizard (Fagnus isn't even all that optimized an orbizard), but I obviously know the pains a low-level orbizard has to go through. You spend such a long time not really doing much with the orb that once you hit paragon you at least want to feel powerful, if not necessarily the "party MVPC," so to speak.

But, alright. If we must address this, I suggest lowering the threshold a bit. A 20% chance for solos still seems a bit much, personally, so how about autosave on a 20 normally (including PC's, in case anything ever feels like giving them save penalties) and 19-20 for solos. To give it a little bit extra, I was thinking we could have the elites and solos do, well, something upon saving... say auto-recharge an ability, and use as a free action? It's flavorful enough; you spend so long not being able to do anything that you just want to lash out at the nearest things you can find.

It's not just stun (or daze). Sleep is a top contender as well, and perma-restraining a melee solo is also the end-be-all of a party.

And the wizard doesn't get the short end of the stick; only an orbizard uber-optimized to deliver save penalties are. Every solo still normally passes on a 17 up, barring the orbizard who can deliver a -13 to saves. Even a wis30 stat wizard without ubercrunch wouldn't get there.

Still, I'd prefer that we get to a compromise here. Keeping it to a 20 for solos only seem a bittoo low for me, and 17-20 seem a bit too high for you. How about 20 for elites, 19-20 for solos?

And I like your auto-recharge, although we must consider the case when he's going to pass anyway (which is the case when he is struck with a status effect by anyone but an uber-optimized orbizard)

I actually mentioned 20 for everybody, 19-20 for solos. Just to be clear that we agree that it's fair enough Very Happy

We can always word the auto-recharge so that it only takes effect on a 20 for elites and 19-20 for solos. Maybe some encounter power to be selected upon autosaving? Something like that.

Yeah, that was a brain-fart on my end. Embarassed

Too busy with work is my excuse.

19-20 for solos, 20 flat for everyone else. Auto-fail on a 1. Any other additions/objections?

Otherwise, we go back to voting. Razz

None. Let's get things rolling, then.

I vote Twisted Evil

I see auto-fail.

I vote Twisted Evil

.

Done! It's a BT-official rule. Of course, DM's may still change it for their own games, but if they don't talk about it beforehand, then the rule is assumed to be in place.

I'll try to post in on adaptations tonight.