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oghma
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: On the subject of guns and who gets them |
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The current rise in crime rates here in the Philippines and the rest of the world are mostly involving gun violence and the inability of the normal people to defend themselves. Would it be a little bit safer if each and every citizen over 18 were to be given and to be trained in the use of a pistol/firearm?
Most of the time criminals get their firearms by being a criminal. Our current laws don't do jack S*** against them.
It's just a thought exercise for all of us, and a point of debate.
_________________
"I should mug people to this song. I'll get so many silver points." -Random youtuber
"LOL! If someone mugged me while this song was playing, I would know that they meant business. " -another random youtuber |
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princessa
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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I commend ogremoch for the topic.
Wait, aren't crimes here in the Philippines mostly petty thefts (ie. cellphone snatching, jeepney holdups, etc)? Which stems from POVERTY? How can impoverished people afford to buy guns in the first place? Most holdups utilize balisongs and knives. Hell, I know one guy who got mugged with a ballpen in Philcoa. Point being, with the normal joe dirt being able to use everyday objects as weapons, why make their life easier and hand them guns?
It wouldn't feel safer if EVERY citizen here (by EVERY I assume you mean the ones below the poverty level, too?) were given firearms. Given?? Trained is fine, I think. The know-how to handle a gun in an emergency MIGHT save your life one day.
Guns are a thing of power. Power corrupts. Even if the original purpose was to let the owner defend himself, I have little faith in humans that "defense" will not cross over into "offense" sooner or later.
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Last edited by princessa on Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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oghma
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Ancient Dragon
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Of course gun is a tool. It depends on the user if it'll be used to protect or to harm.
Idealistically, most people are good. So if we give every person a gun that means there would be more good people with guns. But also this stems from the fact the we must defend ourselves against government if the time comes that they abuse us too.
_________________
"I should mug people to this song. I'll get so many silver points." -Random youtuber
"LOL! If someone mugged me while this song was playing, I would know that they meant business. " -another random youtuber |
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the-bumper-car
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Old Dragon
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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First off, I agree with princesa - this is a great topic. So my thoughts on gun control, let me show you them.
I have a problem with your solution to gun violence, oghma - you seem to think that arming people will reduce crimes. If that was true, then the USA, which has the highest individual gun ownership in the world, would be the safest place to live in. After all, who would be stupid enough to rob people in a country where practically everyone is armed, right?
The answer: other people with guns, people with extreme need, and, most importantly, criminals. The risk of getting shot at, possibly fatally, does not offset the payoff of easy money.
My problem with guns is that they up the ante too much, threat-wise. When somebody gets into an argument with someone, and at least one has a gun, then the risk of it ending fatally and the casualty count could end up much higher than if, say, they didn't have any weapons, or if only knives were available.
It's due to the nature of guns - it doesn't take a lot of training for them to be dangerous in your hands, but you need a LOT of training to be safe around them. How is that supposed to make society safer?
EDIT: Dang, wrong username. Sorry, haven't had my morning caffeine yet.
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Currently Playing: The World Ends With You, Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo Tales, Picross
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Last edited by the-bumper-car on Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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He is called oghma here. Entirely different deity, iirc. 
I'll give actual comments later after I finish these forsaken exams. 
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oghma
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Good points t-b-c and princessa, realistically, we can't trust the people to use firearms only for defense.
Idealistically, guns in the right hands help in keeping the peace though. If you're being mugged or molested, just saying that you've got a gun might actually deter those who want to wish you harm. (I'm too much of an idealist I know.)
_________________
"I should mug people to this song. I'll get so many silver points." -Random youtuber
"LOL! If someone mugged me while this song was playing, I would know that they meant business. " -another random youtuber |
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princessa
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Goddess
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| oghma wrote: | | Idealistically, most people are good. |
Realistically, most people gravitate towards evil. It's the easier way to go.
| oghma wrote: | | guns in the right hands help in keeping the peace though.. |
Great timing. Quid custodiet ipsos custodes. The Watchmen movie is coming up. WHOSE are the right hands?
Another thing: Someone will ALWAYS have a bigger gun than you.
_________________
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Last edited by princessa on Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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the-bumper-car
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Old Dragon
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| oghma wrote: | | Idealistically, guns in the right hands help in keeping the peace though. If you're being mugged or molested, just saying that you've got a gun might actually deter those who want to wish you harm. (I'm too much of an idealist I know.) |
This is actually a bit of a myth - it's a good thing you're aware of it. Telling someone to stop bugging you because you've got a gun is just as effective as telling someone to stop bugging you because you have a blackbelt in karate - the people who really do intend to harm you will harm you anyway.
Sadly, personal experience has shown to me that bringing in guns to a fight needlessly escalates the tension, and makes violence much more likely.
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princessa
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| the-bumper-car wrote: | | This is actually a bit of a myth - it's a good thing you're aware of it. Telling someone to stop bugging you because you've got a gun is just as effective as telling someone to stop bugging you because you have a blackbelt in karate - the people who really do intend to harm you will harm you anyway. |
Yeps. "I have a gun." is actually more of a challenge than a warning/threat.
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oghma
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| princessa wrote: | | Another thing: Someone will ALWAYS have a bigger gun than you. |
That's the problem, it's always the criminals who have the bigger gun. How about giving the bigger guns to the regular citizens so that they could defend themselves?
_________________
"I should mug people to this song. I'll get so many silver points." -Random youtuber
"LOL! If someone mugged me while this song was playing, I would know that they meant business. " -another random youtuber |
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erwin
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Master of None
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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The idea of being trained with guns is good thing.
The idea of everybody having guns is another thing entirely.
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the-bumper-car
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Old Dragon
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| oghma wrote: | | princessa wrote: | | Another thing: Someone will ALWAYS have a bigger gun than you. |
That's the problem, it's always the criminals who have the bigger gun. How about giving the bigger guns to the regular citizens so that they could defend themselves? |
Because it's a vicious cycle. Criminals will get bigger guns because they need to overcome the "regular" citizens. If we legislate giving every law-abiding citizen in the Philippines an uzi, criminals will get something worse to compensate.
But the thing about guns is they are far far worse than swords or knives. A large sword is far more lethal than a small sword, while a small gun is just as lethal as a big gun.
So what would be the point of giving regular citizens access to the really dangerous stuff then? So they can make arguments even more deadly, and make fatal shooting sprees have more collateral damage? You can use a handgun to stop a criminal just as easily as an uzi - in fact, it's probably more difficult to use the machine gun properly.
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you just need a license to carry a gun here? If so, and you can get one, and afford a gun, then just buy one, if you're that worried. As for everybody else, that's their problem. You pay for protection, same as everything else. If they can't defend themselves then too effin' bad.
As for handing everybody a gun, that causes more problems than it solves. For one, with all the drunkards and heated arguments we get nightly, dozens of people are bound to die every night. Secondly, it's far too easy for Joe Nutjob to get a gun if the government were just handing them out. Enjoy your shootan spree.
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princessa
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| boy_bakal wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you just need a license to carry a gun here? If so, and you can get one, and afford a gun, then just buy one, if you're that worried. As for everybody else, that's their problem. You pay for protection, same as everything else. |
Yeah, you do need a license to carry a gun.
But then again, you need a license to drive a car... and getting a driver's license ain't exactly that hard...
*coughRECTOcough*
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boy_bakal
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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I know, but the point here is, what, stopping crime by giving people guns? That isn't very practical, considering guns aren't all that hard to acquire. As for training, it's not really all that necessary. A good percentage of practical uses for guns in everyday life will require that you wield the gun at ahort, even point blank range, and if you still botch it then maybe you just have to admit that the Big Guy really has it out for you.
The people who can't afford guns shouldn't be packing heat anyway. If the government tossed 'em a pistol or two then they're likely more inclined to use it for self-gain as opposed to self-defense.
Ultimately, I think it could work... but not in the here and now.
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erwin
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Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As for training, it's not really all that necessary. A good percentage of practical uses for guns in everyday life will require that you wield the gun at ahort, even point blank range, and if you still botch it then maybe you just have to admit that the Big Guy really has it out for you. |
That reminds me of the time Homer Simpson got a gun. And uses it on everything he does. EVERYTHING. (well, iirc)
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Guns simply won't save crimes; it will escalate them.
Personally, I don't want to get a gun because I'm afraid I will one day lose it and kill someone with it.
See, owning a gun is a responsibility that very few people can actually bear. That one bad day could cause you to kill. All-in-all, in trying to decrease theft, you increase homicide exponentially. And to top it off, you don't even get to reduce theft. You just handed potential muggers more ammo.
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oghma
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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princessa
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Even if you get a gun for righteous reasons, (quoting Harvey Dent) "you either die as a hero or live long enough to see yourself as the villain".
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oghma
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| princessa wrote: | I don't think it's "discipline".
It's more of "power corrupts." |
It's one and the same. You won't get corrupted by power if your moral discipline is highly enforced. But then, it's human nature to kill. I'd rather see the regular citizens kill criminals than the other way around.
_________________
"I should mug people to this song. I'll get so many silver points." -Random youtuber
"LOL! If someone mugged me while this song was playing, I would know that they meant business. " -another random youtuber |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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And who gets to choose who is lumped under the "normal citizen" group and the "criminal" group?
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oghma
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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princessa
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| oghma wrote: | | It's one and the same. You won't get corrupted by power if your moral discipline is highly enforced. But then, it's human nature to kill. I'd rather see the regular citizens kill criminals than the other way around. |
Sooner or later, "highly enforced moral discipline" gets gnawed away sooner or later.
It probably isn't even "human nature" (to kill) when you think about it. It's probably a "Law" that everyone gravitates to the dark side as time passes.
Them "higher beings" just take a longer while to fall to the ground.
...back to guns.
| oghma wrote: | | Of course, the people. As it should be. |
Define "the people".
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Expected, really.
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oghma
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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In our current world, no law has teeth. I'd rather have vigilantes going in and causing havoc with gunfire rather than having a semblance of order by a government that bickers with itself. Sure, I might get killed by my words, but that's what I believe in. I'd rather fight back rather than stand aside in fear which I have done for the greater part of my childhood.
_________________
"I should mug people to this song. I'll get so many silver points." -Random youtuber
"LOL! If someone mugged me while this song was playing, I would know that they meant business. " -another random youtuber |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Again, I disagree.
The government does have teeth; the problem is where they point it.
But the topic is who gets to own guns. Vigilantism does not work, simply because vigilantes, unlike the comics, invariably turn into villains.
And just to point out, this country is definitely filled with vigilantes. Does it make me feel safer, though, when I see a chopped up body in University Avenue, with a small cardboard piece that has the words, "isa akong magnanakaw"? Certainly not! How can we tell if that was indeed a criminal, or just some guy who "stole" something intangible?
My point goes back to this; how do you decide who the criminals are? If someone takes matters into their own hands, how long does it take before you decide that the jeepney driver who didn't give you your change is a criminal, and exact vigilante justice?
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | Again, I disagree.
The government does have teeth; the problem is where they point it.
But the topic is who gets to own guns. Vigilantism does not work, simply because vigilantes, unlike the comics, invariably turn into villains.
And just to point out, this country is definitely filled with vigilantes. Does it make me feel safer, though, when I see a chopped up body in University Avenue, with a small cardboard piece that has the words, "isa akong magnanakaw"? Certainly not! How can we tell if that was indeed a criminal, or just some guy who "stole" something intangible?
My point goes back to this; how do you decide who the criminals are? If someone takes matters into their own hands, how long does it take before you decide that the jeepney driver who didn't give you your change is a criminal, and exact vigilante justice? |
This remind me of two animes, Deathnote and Vampire Hunter D.
As what D said when he was ask what would happen if his hunger as a vampire would eventually consume him. He simply answered " If that day comes then another will hunt me.It's as simple as that."
Light already had control over the deathnote and was simply picking off criminals but he was too overwhelmed with power that in the end he was the one being hunted as a criminal.
Back to guns. I admit I own a gun but as much as I would like to go around shooting disgusting criminals in the head, I don't. I believe that guns are not meant to kill but more on to subdue. If a criminal by any chance tries to harm anyone close to me like my family or friends I would try to subdue him first with a shot on the leg or the shoulder but if he still tries to fight back then that would be the time that I decide if I end a person's life or not. As much as possible I won't try to kill him.
I know this personally. We got robbed at home when I was five. But the second time when I was in high school made me pull the trigger. But it was not to kill the guy but to subdue him, I shot him on the leg while he was on the roof. I did it not to teach the guy a lesson nor to end his life but for the authorities to have ample time to arrest the guy.
In my point of view power does not corrupt everyone who has it. It just needs to be on the hands of someone who is responsible enough to use it.
One thing that I want to add, actually all citizen's in the Philippines by our law should be trained in firearms the only problem is that CAT and ROTC was made into a non - compulsary course due to some actions of ::consored:: officers.
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Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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yes, I have no qualms against people being taught how to handle guns. Because otherwise, HOW WILL WE SURVIVE A ZOMBIE INFESTATION???
 *eherm*
What I've never been a fan of is the concept that everybody above 18 should be awarded a gun. It's kind of like a modernized version of the "Teach a man to fish" proverb: No government should give away guns in the same way that they shouldn't give away fish. Instead, teach them how to use it, and continue enacting the strict prerequisites to owning one.
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | yes, I have no qualms against people being taught how to handle guns. Because otherwise, HOW WILL WE SURVIVE A ZOMBIE INFESTATION???
*eherm*
What I've never been a fan of is the concept that everybody above 18 should be awarded a gun. It's kind of like a modernized version of the "Teach a man to fish" proverb: No government should give away guns in the same way that they shouldn't give away fish. Instead, teach them how to use it, and continue enacting the strict prerequisites to owning one. |
Teaching a man how to fire a gun (and also firing mortars, etc) is being done by the government for long time in the form of ROTC. Aside from teaching how to fire a gun students are also being taught how to disassemble, maintain, and reassemble a gun. Discipline is also being reinforced. For me teaching a man to fire a gun is not enough. Kids have killed their own nannies with a handgun even though they weren't taught to fire one - thanks to tv. Discipline is also needed.
For me the ones who should own (or possess a gun) are the armed forces of the society (police, army, etc you get the idea). Do I agree with the citizens owning a gun? Legal guns, they can have some if they can afford them and they are mentally fit.
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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