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| < In Discussion ~ Matters of Divinity |
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 Posted:
Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:52 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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Perhaps we should be clear as to what divinity in our campaign setting is to be. So, to start of,
| Xtian wrote: |
D&D gods are formed by faith and their appearance depend on their believers. Norse gods look like humans because their believers believe they look that way. The same is true for orc gods, elf gods, etc.
However, D&D canon speaking, on the debate whether believers created gods or gods created believers is not answered. It is like a chicken and an egg debate.
Maybe the reason the gods are dead-dead and can't be resurrected is because: (note that some of these have assumptions)
a. Place of death. They got killed on their own homes. Archetypal deity death.
b. Special death. Upon their deaths their connections to faith were also severed. Since they were dependent on worship they couldn't be resurrected.
c. Lack of worshippers. Nobody worships them anymore. Or, not enough worshippers to rekindle their life spark. Wars keep population at bay.
f. Deity-like powers. Some creatures rival the powers of deities.
e. As you mentioned, artifacts! Also archetypal.
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As for my own notes, these are some of the mechanical things (dubbed with "iirc", so correct me when necessary) I remember from 3.0 DDG. Until we see 4.0 DDG (possibly at 2010?), we could assume that these things are DnD canon.
*Deities receive max hp and get a hefty DR, not to mention armor class like silly.
*They received SDA's (salient divine abilities), which made them a lot more powerful than mere mortals. Turn your attention to one of the common SDA's (divine blast), know that that is far from the strongest, and fear. Fear teh deities.
*Unless killed in their own realm, deities "respawn" after a set amount of years. Even then, a few have the SDA "rejuvenation", which means that they just reform after days. Only other deities (or in DF, cosmic entities) can supress that SDA, and even then with an opposed rank check only.
*Gods have aspects. Avatars. Should these entities survive, even after the god is slain, they could theoretically have an aspect that will slowly grow into a carbon-copy of itself.
What am I saying, here? Basically, DnD gods are tough buggers. Killing them is more than just wielding an artifact. (Ex, the Sword of Kas can theoretically kill Vecna, but even a level 25 fighter wielding it will have a darn near impossible task) So what is my proposed solution?
Our gods have to be weaker somehow.
That presents problems in it's own, though. These gods, though not necessarily the Creators of the Universe, were creators in their own right. They created eternals. Plus mortals. So, before anything else, I think we need to define divinity in our campaign setting. |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:19 am
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Old Dragon
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 413
Location: Limbo
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Why would gods create something that they know could lead to their downfall one day? It is clearly because they didn't know. They didn't know that the dissension among the eternals ran deep. They didn't know when the Godslayer artifacts were made. They didn't know that they would die. Gods in this campaign doesn't necessarily lack in power as Revan had pointed out, but rather lacking in wisdom/knowledge. They can be duped, fooled, outwitted.
First, when the gods have created eternals and mortals, did they create an aspect of themselves? They created out of their nature, and so each of their creation reflects their own personae. They created beings of lesser power than they are because of fear. But having a limited spectrum of the truth, and because own petty bickerings, the gods missed out on the greater conflicts that were happening around them. But what about the powerful lawful deities? Miscalculation, hubris. |
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Master Wayne, you've just been PWNED! |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:44 pm
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus
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| Quote: |
| Why would gods create something that they know could lead to their downfall one day? It is clearly because they didn't know.
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Or why would spellcasters craft magebane weapons? So they could be used against rival spellcasters. But didn't expected that the weapons would also be used against them.
Other possibility is that there were no direct confrontations. |
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solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:23 pm
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban
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I'm going to be on moderately slow update mode, at least for the next week, as we're house-sitting.
-Powerful but fallible. These are not your Abrahamic omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Authority figures. Which is why I like the ideal of Greek and Norse anthropomorphic gods.
-I introduced a possible source of their weaknesses in the core flavor text:
| Revan wrote: |
In a mad scramble to cement the worship, loyalty, fear, and awe of their herds of mortal cattle, the gods began to change, growing more and more defined and personified in order to make themselves more (perceptible/understandable) to their worshippers.
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troubled by the changes wrought upon the gods by the Faith of mortals. Where once the gods were cosmic, immortal powers, now they seemed transformed into petty lordlings and ladies, like supremely powerful children fighting over scraps.
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Faith became a source of power, and as the gods consumed it, it began to change them. "You are what you eat" and all of that shite. They began to grow more and more human-like, less and less lofty, divine, and celestial. I'm not saying they became human, but they began to model themselves around what mortals considered powerful/fearsome/benevolent.
Where a god of whose ideal is strife and conflict may once have manifested as a hundred-armed, hundred-eyed, hundred-headed beast, it/he would now manifest as a dark-haired, smoldering-eyed, human in full-plate armor carrying a nine-headed flail. This form would be far more recognizable, and at least superficially, more terrifying as it is easier to understand.
That's part of what made them vulnerable. They began to unconsciously take on a mortal perspective. |
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Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:12 pm
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus
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| Quote: |
| -Powerful but fallible. These are not your Abrahamic omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Authority figures. Which is why I like the ideal of Greek and Norse anthropomorphic gods.
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D&D gods are like that.
| Quote: |
| Faith became a source of power,
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Gods before faith. But faith empowers them.
If you remember, Sandman gods also use faith as source of power. The gods become weak as their worshippers diminish in number. Remember that egyptian cat deity?
Dream, Destiny, Death, etc... They are cosmic entities. As long as the concept they personify exists, or even the opposite of that concept, they can never be killed.
| Quote: |
| Where a god of whose ideal is strife and conflict may once have manifested as a hundred-armed, hundred-eyed, hundred-headed beast, it/he would now manifest as a dark-haired, smoldering-eyed, human in full-plate armor carrying a nine-headed flail. This form would be far more recognizable, and at least superficially, more terrifying as it is easier to understand.
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Sounds like natural deity to me.
Different races may view a deity in their races' perspective. Check this out.
Another example is Galactus. Humans see him in humanoid figure. Other races see Galactus in figure similar to their own.
| Quote: |
| more terrifying as it is easier to understand.
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Another perspective is because of limitation of mortal minds. |
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:07 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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1st things 1st:
| BJ wrote: |
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So, before anything else, I think we need to define divinity in our campaign setting.
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Not figure out how they were killed by mortals. We'll get to that. Before we kill off gods, let's first figure out what they are.
I understand the topics are connected. But let's try to do it one at the time.
| Revan wrote: |
-Powerful but fallible. These are not your Abrahamic omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Authority figures. Which is why I like the ideal of Greek and Norse anthropomorphic gods.
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Of course they aren't. the God of Abraham can not die. He is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. The gods of our campaign pale to this.
We know that they were powerful but fallible. The question is; what are they?
| Revan wrote: |
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That's part of what made them vulnerable. They began to unconsciously take on a mortal perspective.
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As Xtian said, that is still DnD divinity.
From what I heard so far, COPAL is stuck to defining gods in the exact same way DnD canon defines them. Concur? Object? |
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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| Posted:
Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:43 pm
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Lord of Pwnage
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 1920
Location: Zero
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I don't see why not. No need to strain over definitions when the old one works fine (at least it does in my opinion).
How did the gods die? Great big all-out war, and the god of SCIENCE! unleashes his ultimate creation: antimatter. However, the stuff is too hard to control, and it spreads onto the field like wildfire, destroying most gods on the spot. What few survived the initial onslaught gave up the entirety of their essence to seal away the antimatter and keep it from devouring the cosmos. Thus have all gods died, and much later on the godstones dropped from the heavens and onto the material plane, in locations unknown to man, who then start questing for them, etc. etc.
That's about it. Have to smooth it out a little bit, but that's the main idea. |
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:22 am
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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| boy_bakal wrote: |
I don't see why not. No need to strain over definitions when the old one works fine (at least it does in my opinion).
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Because, as a mathematician, I refuse to work with something that is not well-definded 
Seriously, that's the thing. If the old definition is employed, then they are indeed very tough buggers. give level 30 tordekk a +20godbane sword of uber-smackage and he will still have a problem with a god. |
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:55 am
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban
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| Xtian wrote: |
Gods before faith. But faith empowers them.
If you remember, Sandman gods also use faith as source of power. The gods become weak as their worshippers diminish in number. Remember that egyptian cat deity?
Dream, Destiny, Death, etc... They are cosmic entities. As long as the concept they personify exists, or even the opposite of that concept, they can never be killed.
| Quote: |
| Where a god of whose ideal is strife and conflict may once have manifested as a hundred-armed, hundred-eyed, hundred-headed beast, it/he would now manifest as a dark-haired, smoldering-eyed, human in full-plate armor carrying a nine-headed flail. This form would be far more recognizable, and at least superficially, more terrifying as it is easier to understand.
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Sounds like natural deity to me.
Different races may view a deity in their races' perspective. Check this out.
Another example is Galactus. Humans see him in humanoid figure. Other races see Galactus in figure similar to their own.
| Quote: |
| more terrifying as it is easier to understand.
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Another perspective is because of limitation of mortal minds.
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1. On gods weakening due to lack of worshippers: It's not just that they weakened due to lack of worship during the later years, but that the very act of accepting worship changed them.
Where the gods were once self-sufficient, struggling only for dominion over Creation, by accepting mortal worship and feeding off it, their natures were changed. I'm still being vague about this, but I'm trying to find the words. Need to work on it a bit tomorrow.
Wait, here's one. From being Cosmic concepts ala Endless, they became defined, personified. You're no longer dealing with Death, you're dealing with Lyrael, the Night Hawk, or Kreyus, the Rotting Lord, or any of a host of death gods/aspects.
2. As for perceived form, this may have held true for a while, as say the Strife manifested itself among its worshippers as Mithran, the flame-eyed Sower-of-Thunders, but when Strife begins to be changed by Faith, its Mithran personality is strengthened to the point that it begins to view itself as Mithran, Sower-of-Thunder.
The Infinite is not perceived differently by different Mortals, Infinity is eventually defined by Mortal Faith, until Infinity is bound and personified in the form. All eventually behold Strife as Sower-of-Thunder, Roar-of-Storms, or whatever gods, each a distinct entity of its own, once parts of the Strife Idea/Concept/Force, but now separate Gods in their own right.
Okay, this is getting clearer, evolutionarily:
-Gods begin as impersonal, abstract powers/ideas/concepts.
-Creation entices the God-concepts, leading to struggle, the shaping of the Firstborn (Eternals), and a consolidation of domains.
-Mortal worship defines and fragments the God-concepts into God-persons. |
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:21 am
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban
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Possible readings of things with similar themes, events:
David Eddings
-Belgariad and Malloreon
-Elenium and Tamuli
Most of these involve the deaths of elder gods at the hands of an artifact (the Orb of Aldur and Bhelliom), and have a kind of personalization of divinity that I kind of like. (Aphrael, goddess of magic and trickery is cunning, cute, sympathetic, and an absolute terror as a daughter.) The ending of Elenium, in particular, has an interesting, if subtle portrayal of how nature could react to the death of a god with a year where everything, from seasons, weather, harvest, etc, goes wrong. Now take that example and magnify it.
Fred Saberhagen
-The Book of Swords trilogy
The gods create a set of Artifact swords in order to serve as tokens, weapons, pawns, tools in their factional struggles and disputes. Vulcan shapes them to be powerful tools imbued with thematic magic of each gods. Then it all goes FUBAR when a mortal turns one of the Swords against the gods themselves. |
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:05 am
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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Transferred ym converstion into separate thread.
Moderator powers!!! ROAR!! |
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:50 am
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Goderator
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 3260
Location: Avernus
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| Quote: |
Not figure out how they were killed by mortals. We'll get to that. Before we kill off gods, let's first figure out what they are.
I understand the topics are connected. But let's try to do it one at the time.
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It's fine. We are in 'generating ideas' stage. It is the stage where nothing gets discarded/banned/opposed. Later we filter the ideas. If an off-topic merits a thread of its own it can be split. 
| Quote: |
| Wait, here's one. From being Cosmic concepts ala Endless, they became defined, personified. You're no longer dealing with Death, you're dealing with Lyrael, the Night Hawk, or Kreyus, the Rotting Lord, or any of a host of death gods/aspects.
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From Cosmic beings to gods is a twist.
Traditionally a cosmic being is the ultimate personification of a concept and the gods are the decentralized personification of the concept in question. For example (mixed cosmology) Death (Sandman) is the personification of death (end, dead, etc) while Thanatos is the decentralized death for Greek pantheon, Nerull for Greyhawk, Mors for Romans, and so on.
Traditionally, you can't kill cosmics permanently. The twist of cosmics becoming gods then getting killed is a hmmm... i'm out of word. It raises many questions. And ideas. An idea dual nature of divine-cosmic is playing in my head.
Brainstorm brainstorm.
I think it is possible that after the gods get killed, their bones remained but they, also as a cosmic, rejuvenated and never again cared after learning from their mistakes. |
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:05 pm
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Old Dragon
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 413
Location: Limbo
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| The killing of a cosmic idea is... distasteful to say the least. Gods themselves were fashioned from the material of the Cosmic Idea. So, in a sense, they are lesser manifestations of the cosmic. Sure the gods' nature were changed by faith, as they began to feed upon the worship of their creation... but how about lesser concepts? The god of hate for example? If Hate is a cosmic idea, then he still exists, not in god form, but as a concept. The gods die, but as they die, new ones are born. The old is replaced by the new. Now, it might be that we are not aware of it, that some newbron gods are out there, but right now, they don't care about the mortal realms as they were not their creation, but the other way around... the creator now created, by the mortal gods... |
_________________
Master Wayne, you've just been PWNED! |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:27 pm
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1552
Location: Korriban
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| Xtian wrote: |
I think it is possible that after the gods get killed, their bones remained but they, also as a cosmic, rejuvenated and never again cared after learning from their mistakes.
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Pardon the spouting of wild theories, but here's one:
What happened to all the elements of the cosmic powers that did not coalesce into divinity? Were they just sloughed off, or did they crystallize into the godstones?
-taken from the notes of a heretic Arcanist, found dead at the hands of Redeemer cultists. |
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:51 pm
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3997
Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa
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