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Zeus!!!

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Xtian

Goderator

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 3259

Location: Avernus

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: Zeus!!!

Ok. I think I like Zeus and I want to get better at using this lightning throwing Lord of Olympia. So, let us start discussing about him. I want to know more like what items are good or bad, team synergies, strategies. ^__^
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"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!"

erwin

Master of None

Joined: 06 Dec 2006

Posts: 2932

Location: Searching...

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:43 am Post subject:

zeus is a spammer, no doubt about it.. so a guinsoo's scythe of vise is always on his list..
for additional toughness, i recommend bloodstone or linken's sphere.. although bloodstone would be more helpful..

Bloodstone is compose of soulbooster, and perseverance(which is composed of ring of health and void stone). if you make bloodstone first, you gain access to other powerful items.

If you have the right amount of gold, disassemble the bloodstone(at the hero circle, near the taverns) and use its components to make more powerful items. Soulbooster to aganhim scepter, ring of health to vanguard, and voidstone to eul's scepter(then into guinsoo at later levels).. or if you want just turn your perseverance into a linken sphere..

Downside of this build is you can't spam like crazy, but soulbooster + voidstone will give you enough fire power.. the trick is always aim for the least HP in battle (or the one with no magic resistance, whichever applies). If none applies, always work with others as a blastermage, just don't killsteal a lot..

But if you like spamming more than your HP, go for guinsoo at early levels, then aganihm or linken or bloodstone, whatever you like.
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boy_bakal

Lord of Pwnage

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 1920

Location: Zero

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:24 am Post subject:

As for your skill build, always max out lightning bolt, but not arc lightning. Why? Arc doesn't have a lot of damage potential to begin with, so it's really only used to trigger static field, which deals percentage damage to opponents' hp. That means it'll always hurt no matter who you're up against.

Other useful items include Boots of Travel and Dagger of Escape. BoT is essential for almost any int type, and it's great later on when the game turns into a battle of farming/pushing. Dagger of Escape grants Zeus an emergency exit, and can be more effective than Lothar's Edge if you know how to use it properly.

Lastly, always listen to your allies. Never use wrath solo unless you're absolutely sure you can kill someone. Always try to keep it in reserve. And most importantly, when your teammates tell you to run, you RUN, no questions asked XD
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oldgobbo0

Very Young Dragon

Joined: 23 Apr 2007

Posts: 13

Location: Makati City

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject:

as for the suggested allies, a zeus is good to have lich in one lane. both heroes spam like crazy and before you know it, either one of them drew first blood. also, strygwyr's thirst can give zeus the knowledge on when to cast thunder God's wrath, although you should ask strygwyr's permission first since he can also kill that hero. but most of the time, any hero wll do for a team mate...^^

supertotoy

Old Dragon

Joined: 23 Mar 2007

Posts: 413

Location: Limbo

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject:

I generally disagree with erwin's suggestion of disassembling Perseverance. Eul's and Vanguard both will come in too late to factor in the game, where the opponents might have already built more powerful items. But here it is, your paths when you have a Bloodstone:

Code:

Item Path: Bloodstone

disassemble Mystic Staff
Bloodstone <------+-------> Soulbooster --------------> Aghanim's Scepter
|
| Oblivion Staff
+-------> Perseverance ----------------> Refresher Orb
| recipe
|
| Claymore
+------------------> Battle Fury
| Mithril Hammer
|
|
| Ultimate Orb
+------------------> Linken's Sphere
| recipe
|
|
disassemble
+------+------+
| |
| | Staff of Wizardry
Ring Void Robe of the Magi
of Stone ----------------------> Eul's Scepter
Health recipe of Divinity
|
| Vitality Booster
+-------------------> Vanguard
| Stout Shield
|
|
|
| Planeswalker's Cloak
+----------------------> Hood of Defiance
Helm of Iron Will

And oh. I've put in other items as well, for the use of other characters.
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supertotoy

Old Dragon

Joined: 23 Mar 2007

Posts: 413

Location: Limbo

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject:

If you'll take the Bloodstone as Zeus' item, then I suggest you quickly go for Perseverance. That way, in case you need to disassemble, you'd be able to have Vanguard and Eul's Scepter at once (Level 1 item ---> Level 2 items). And if you don't yet need to disassemble, get Oblivion Staff (buying Robe of the Magi first), and Vitality Booster. This I think, would be the best way to get to any item that Zeus might need: accessible to Bloodstone, Vanguard, Guinsoo, Refresher Orb, or Aghanim's.
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oldgobbo0

Very Young Dragon

Joined: 23 Apr 2007

Posts: 13

Location: Makati City

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject:

its good to have bloodstone for zeus early game. if i were to disassemble bloodstone, i would buy aghanim and refresher, or if the situation calls for it, i would purchase linken sphere...^^

mnightsilver

Mature Adult Dragon

Joined: 11 Dec 2006

Posts: 290

Location: In Your Heart

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject:

Let's keep Zeus's allies on the sentinel side. Which sentinel heroes work well for him?

Btw, will you be able to play with us at Hobby Stop again on Friday, Xtian?
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Xtian

Goderator

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 3259

Location: Avernus

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject:

@supertotoy:
That is one very cool table. Very Happy

@mnightsilver:
Sure! Very Happy

@all:
Keep it going guys! I'm taking down notes. Very Happy

_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!"

oghma

Ancient Dragon

Joined: 20 Mar 2007

Posts: 857

Location: The Happy Hunting Grounds

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject:

One rule of thumb when using heroes without an escape mechanism: "Make one or die." That is one of the Lord of Olympia's primary weaknesses, lack of stun and/or lockdown abilities. Unless you have a stunner or some help in your team, you'll certainly have a hard-ass time farming.
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boy_bakal

Lord of Pwnage

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 1920

Location: Zero

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject:

Hence the suggested Keldon's Dagger of Escape. Not only is it good for getting out of a tough spot, it's perfect for chasing down low health heroes who won't die with just one wrath. Blink in, cast Lightning Bolt, then call down the Thundergod's Wrath for the kill.
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Xtian

Goderator

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 3259

Location: Avernus

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject:

oghma wrote:

Hmmm... No wonder whenever BB is my teammate and I ask him "what do i buy?", He always says in Nathan Explosion voice "GUINSOOO!!!!"

Hex is really handy. Very Happy

erwin

Master of None

Joined: 06 Dec 2006

Posts: 2932

Location: Searching...

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:00 am Post subject:

@supertotoy:
Maybe you're right.. refresher is a better option..

@boy_bakal:
YES! ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ITEMS IN THE GAME! It's a basic necessity, unless you're vengeful or pudge (which are banned form this items)..
It's a tournament staple.. it's a game-turning item..
tournament games sometimes end with heroes having only a blink dagger Twisted Evil

@Xtian:
Yes, hex is Twisted Evil

. It removes ALL spell resistance on that hero, even from those given by items (hood of defiance, etc.) and hero abilities (spell shiled of Magina, etc..) which is good for your nuke spells Twisted Evil

It's a disable as well..
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supertotoy

Old Dragon

Joined: 23 Mar 2007

Posts: 413

Location: Limbo

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject:

erwin wrote:

@boy_bakal:
YES! ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ITEMS IN THE GAME! It's a basic necessity, unless you're vengeful or pudge (which are banned form this items)..
It's a tournament staple.. it's a game-turning item..
tournament games sometimes end with heroes having only a blink dagger

Yes... I agree that it is an important item to have. Both Boots of Travel and Blink Dagger have become tourney staples, but pros only buy them depending on the current game situation. C'mon, it's still 2300, and if you're a bad to half-decent farmer, then you'll probably buy something else. It'll hurt and slow you down. Again, it is the same thing with Str heroes, you don't buy DoE unless you have a good reason to.

Sorry to digress:
Another item in the tourneys that's so uber used: Empty Bottle. Whether it's np or not. And watching the games where it is used, it's so damned useful...
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boy_bakal

Lord of Pwnage

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 1920

Location: Zero

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject:

I've quickly learned to appreciate the Empty Bottle. It's great for those low mana heroes with good skills who can't spam due to low int.

Take note, you buy the dagger later. Generally you'll want to get a Eul's and maybe some bracers/circlets first. Then you save up for the dagger. Saving up for the dagger straight away is a good way to get behind in the game, and once opponents realize you have it, they'll start spacing each other farther apart to make sure they can chase and kill you.
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold.

erwin

Master of None

Joined: 06 Dec 2006

Posts: 2932

Location: Searching...

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:12 am Post subject:

Empty bottle is good.. really good.. Twisted Evil

Dagger is important is tourneys, where it's not about who has the strongest items or skills, but who uses them wisely..

really helpful against ambushes and gangbangs..
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Xtian

Goderator

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 3259

Location: Avernus

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject:

*takes down notes*

dagger... dagger... dagger...

Must avoid gangbang...

Must escape...
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!"

supertotoy

Old Dragon

Joined: 23 Mar 2007

Posts: 413

Location: Limbo

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject:

@Xtian: Since you want a build for your Zeus, I've tried out many different ones and came up with this. One of my versions of the Lord of Olympus:

Supertotoy's Zeus - the Arcane Ring Build

Code:

Table: Skill Build
+-------+--------------------+
| Level | Skills |
+-------+--------------------|
| 1st | Arc Lightning |
| 2nd | Lightning Bolt |
| 3rd | Lightning Bolt |
| 4th | Static Field |
| 5th | Lightning Bolt |
| 6th | Thundergod's Wrath |
| 7th | Lightning Bolt |
| 8th | Static Field |
| 9th | Static Field |
| 10th | Static Field |
| 11th | Thundergod's Wrath |
| 12th | Stat Bonus |
| 13th | Stat Bonus |
| 14th | Stat Bonus |
| 15th | Stat Bonus |
| 16th | Thundergod's Wrath |
| 17th | Stat Bonus |
| 18th | Stat Bonus |
| 19th | Stat Bonus |
| 20th | Stat Bonus |
| 21st | Stat Bonus |
| 22nd | Stat Bonus |
| 23rd | Arc Lightning |
| 24th | Arc Lightning |
| 25th | Arc Lightning |
+-------+--------------------+

My reasoning for this build is that Arc Lightning's damage is really poor, and the bounce isn't really worth that much, since you want the enemy to be just in the right range of your Static Field. It's your choice if you're going to get another though, but I tell you the cooldown is the same, for a higher cost (you need all the mana you can get), 2 extra bounces, and a trifle difference in damage, especially in late game. If in case you want to get another Arc, get it early - replace static field in level 4, replace it with arc, put static in lv. 12 and the displaced stat bonus in lv. 23. But get no more than two Arcs.

Item Build:
This is a bolt-spam build. Get Tangoes, Potion of Clarities, A Ring of Protection (or a Basilus) early. Make an Arcane Ring quick, then Buy Boots of Speed, then Int or Life Boosters (an option is to grab a Point Booster and an Empty Bottle), then Dagger of Escape, then Boots of Travel. Then quickly build up support items like Eul's.

The key strategy of this build is to stay away and bolt at a safe distance. Dominate the lane with your Lightning Bolt, use Arc for last hits or harrasment. Wrath only if necessary.

Note: Spam Arcane Ring. Thinking about it's 33 second cooldown recovering 110 mana, it has the best regeneration in the game (and it triggers Static Field! Hm...). Coupled with Potion of Clarity, and Empty Bottle, you will have all the mana you will need. Mana base would be furthered with your Int boosting items, and your eventually having a Soul Booster.
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quickbrownfox

Adult Dragon

Joined: 29 Dec 2006

Posts: 163

Location: TSAB Section 6 Headquarters

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject:

Flowcharts are creepy, but I understand the presentation helps cross the point.
I'm not a fan of zeus, I prefer other INT heroes, dunno why. But I'm good in Dota theory, by experience.

Zeus hits hard early game, getting the 1st kill is not uncommon. 1st priority is access to a stable mana pool, then other things. I actually don't really aim for an aghanims and/or refresher. But if you're fast, you'll get there before they boost their HP/Resistance, thus making sure those that should have died, stay dead. HoD is a big damper to Zeus' gameplay. Just a tip, No magic resistance on a hexed character(IIRC, if anyone can deny this, feel free to do so).
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supertotoy

Old Dragon

Joined: 23 Mar 2007

Posts: 413

Location: Limbo

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:42 am Post subject:

HoD is really a damper for most int heroes, but not really for Zeus. It has 8 HP/sec regen, a 30% spell resistance, and +3 armor. Wasting a slot and 2350 only for a Zeus. It doesn't even aid you much against his allies that maybe Agi or Str. Those who really want to nullify a Zeus in a game either take him down often and early, or will buff up their HP first then boost resistance so that his damage won't matter anymore. Lightning Bolt is 350 damage on lv 4. This is the strongest non-AoE, non-Ult spell in the game. And you'll be able to capitalize at lv 7. Even if he is able to make HoD early, Zeus will still be spamming 240 damage plus static damage. Three hits will make almost any hero run away (assumming he's got 1150 life at max) and may mean that he already spent almost 4000 gold to make it early, and you'd be throwing lots of it... not to mention that they take Static damage, which makes your bolt viable even at late game.
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boy_bakal

Lord of Pwnage

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 1920

Location: Zero

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:08 am Post subject:

I disagree. The HoD is a serious monkey wrench into any Zeus player's plans. Sure it's nigh useless against, say, Naix, but the regen really helps regardless of who you're facing.

So the trick is to harass your opponent before he can save up for the hood. That way, even if he can make one, you'll be one or two levels ahead. Just pray you won't be facing the likes of Magina or Pudge, who are tough opponents for Zeus.
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Xtian

Goderator

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 3259

Location: Avernus

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:21 am Post subject:

Thanks for all the inputs guys! In our last game, Zeus was really shining after I applied what I had learned here. His kill score alone was higher than the entire opposition combines. Though I have to admit it was because of my teammates. The team synergy was great: my teammates did the damaging and I was the finisher. It was one of the biggest factors of my good performance. ^__^
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!"

boy_bakal

Lord of Pwnage

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 1920

Location: Zero

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:14 am Post subject:

That's the most important thing to learn: DotA is a team game. Always communicate and cooperate with your teammates. You simply cannot win if you don't know how to do that.
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erwin

Master of None

Joined: 06 Dec 2006

Posts: 2932

Location: Searching...

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject:

My skill bild:

1.lytning bolt
2.stats
3.lightning bolt
4.stats
5.lightning bolt
6.wrath
7.lightning bolt
8.static field
9.arc lightning
10.static field
11.wrath
...
...
you know the rest..

Why lightning bolt + stats? bec. arc lightning isn't worthit at early lvls, although it is the only time that it will make much dmg, or your aggro and don't care on ur mana.. but stats will: increase STR, AGI, INT that will increase your HP, mana, etc..
Although arc lightning will deal more dmg at early lvls, combining it with lightning bolt will easily deplete your mana.. unlike lightning bolt +stats, with lightning bolt as your only active skill, you'll have more mana to use (because of the stats) + you'll have mana to activate wrath of thundergod at lvl6..

But arc lightning will be helpful at late lvls when combined with static field:twisted:.. you know that whenver you use a skill static field will dmg all nearby enemies with 13% of their current HP.. since arc lightning is 2sec cooldown (OMG!) its super spammble and combining it with static field makes fat heroes slim Twisted Evil

.. and since mid to late games are the usual time that heroes go fat, it's a pretty good combo..

FUN FACT: static field triggers first before the skill, so "nasusulit talaga" Laughing

it's just an alternative build, it's so happens that it works for me.. Very Happy

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quickbrownfox

Adult Dragon

Joined: 29 Dec 2006

Posts: 163

Location: TSAB Section 6 Headquarters

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject:

supertotoy wrote:

HoD is really a damper for most int heroes, but not really for Zeus. It has 8 HP/sec regen, a 30% spell resistance, and +3 armor...etc.

I understand that if you're protecting yourself from just 1 hero, it isn't worth it, but as long as there is at least 1 more person with some spell damage, It'd be fine to buy it. But if you're AGI, you'll be better off with some fat. And it's not 240 damage, 30% HoD+ 25% innate Resistance=55% total mag resist. below 175 damage(doesn't want to compute extra 5%, lazy). Not sure if Static is also dampened by more resistance, probably though.

It is one of the most powerful non ulti nukes w/o complications. Battle Hunger deals roughly 450 damage(resistance included), Wild axes deals a base 360 damage. Illuminate deals 500 base damage(or was it 600, not sure about the charge time anymore). Just Saying, but the skill IS still cheap damage, ministun helps a bit too.
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erwin

Master of None

Joined: 06 Dec 2006

Posts: 2932

Location: Searching...

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject:

quickbrownfox wrote:

30% HoD+ 25% innate Resistance=55% total mag resist.

magic resistance does'nt work that way..
it follows (like almost everything else in the game) the DIMINISHING RETURN RULE...

getting many magic resistance (that may add up to 100%) won't give you magic immunity...
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boy_bakal

Lord of Pwnage

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 1920

Location: Zero

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:12 am Post subject:

really? but it's from different sources, and one of them is innate. does it still diminish even though the other source is inherent in all characters?
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erwin

Master of None

Joined: 06 Dec 2006

Posts: 2932

Location: Searching...

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject:

still confirming that...

one thing is for sure:

I wrote:

getting many magic resistance (that may add up to 100%) won't give you magic immunity...

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mnightsilver

Mature Adult Dragon

Joined: 11 Dec 2006

Posts: 290

Location: In Your Heart

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject:

LAYTENING BOLTO! Laughing

Nah, just spamming. Anyway, I actually agree that HoD against Zeus is a real bummer, as it is for other spammers.

Is there really a way to reach 100% magic reduction? Haven't the programmers already considered this possibility?

So say Magina has his innate magic resistance at Lvl4, a HoD, and a Planeswalker's Cloak, what would his magic resistance be?

@Xtian: Fear this hero, especially in the late game, if you're Zeus. You will not like Magina, not at all. Never let him reach late game items. (Note, however, that I am not really an expert. I'm just saying this based from games played and stuff read...)
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boy_bakal

Lord of Pwnage

Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 1920

Location: Zero

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject:

Early it's actually pretty even. Magina will only seriously start to threaten you during mid levels.
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