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erwin
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Xtian wrote: | | Mercenary is more on character background, not a class itself. |
I agree. 
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Me, too. But last ime I checked, we have a fighter class here, not a mercenary class. The mercenary is an archetype, a character background.
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Xtian
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Well... The point is that being a mercenary is a character background. It would work more as a background feat rather than a whole class itself. A archery, brawler, cavalier, etc can be a mercenary. This extends to other classes such as barbarians, warmages, and wizards.
Archer archetype - good at archery
Brawler - good at in-fighting
More archetypes
Wrestler - grappling
Two-weapon fighter - good with 2 weapons
Weapon master - good with a specific weapon
cavalier - mounted fighter
Academic and mercenary could work as 1st level character feat, like the feat noble born.
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solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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Pitz-Ikko
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Xtian makes a good point, although I like Academic as it is. Mercenary is just too broad a concept to be an archetype; hell, it may even be a greater archetype than Fighter itself!
Here are some more ideas right off the bat:
| Quote: | Archer - Concentration, Spot
Warrior - Bluff, Tumble
Cavalier - Balance, Survival
Grappler - Balance, Escape Artist |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Point. Removed Mercenary. Retaining Academic (iit represents the fighter archetype that received his combat training in a formal academy). Am reviewing Pitz' archetype ideas. I wonder, why concentration instead of listen for the archer?
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Pitz-Ikko
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | | I wonder, why concentration instead of listen for the archer? |
Archers, IMO, are more visually-oriented than auditory. Anyways, an archer must be able to concentrate if s/he is to make a long-distance shot. Nothing serious, really - just that I feel Concentrate is more in the archer's range than Listen is. 
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BJ
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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@Pitz: Hmm, good point. Maybe i'll change that *yawn* soon...
@everybody else: talent tree suggestions are welcome.
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erwin
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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How about a Two Weapon Fighting talent tree?
It just popped in my head, so I don't have ideas yet.
Will try to cook up something real soon.
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Pitz-Ikko
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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The TWF feat tree is already fine as it is, and BJ's Weapon Mastery talent tree fits in nicely, especially the Extended Weapon Training talent.
Maybe a Shield Focus talent tree to complement the Armor Focus tree? Like allowing the Fighter to wield double shields and get the shield bonus from both, or fight with two shields in TWF mode. 
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erwin
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | Maybe a Shield Focus talent tree to complement the Armor Focus tree? Like allowing the Fighter to wield double shields and get the shield bonus from both, or fight with two shields in TWF mode. |
Yeah, that would be awesomwe!
But I think getting bonuses from 2 shields is somehow imba. IIRC you can upgrade shields both as a weapon and an "armor". For example +2 flaming burst/ +2 acid resistant light shield. If you put 2 shields together with that, that would be  shocking.
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Pitz-Ikko
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| erwin wrote: | | But I think getting bonuses from 2 shields is somehow imba. IIRC you can upgrade shields both as a weapon and an "armor". For example +2 flaming burst/ +2 acid resistant light shield. If you put 2 shields together with that, that would be shocking. |
Come now, Supermember (no pun intended), it can't be that farfetched, especially with the Greater Critical talent in mind. A tripled threat range? Now that's shocking! As for getting AC bonuses from two shields, you must very well know it's practically useless in the higher levels when the spellslingers are getting away with touch attacks. Let's give the fighter some leverage, guys!
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BJ
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Pitz on this one. Although, two shield bonuses do wonders with that PHB2 feat that lets you add shield bonus to touch attacks.
Nevertheles, I'll try designing a double shield talent tree, plus a bow and arrow tree. Hopefully I post by friday.
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Xtian
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Two-shield fighter. 
I remember that Pitz was talking a fighter build like that years ago.
I would be interested in seeing BJ's take on shield. 3.5's shield mechanics is sucky for me.
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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erwin
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | Come now, Supermember (no pun intended), it can't be that farfetched, especially with the Greater Critical talent in mind. A tripled threat range? Now that's shocking! As for getting AC bonuses from two shields, you must very well know it's practically useless in the higher levels when the spellslingers are getting away with touch attacks. Let's give the fighter some leverage, guys! |
Yeah, maybe your right. I was actually designing a PrC made to be a shield fighter, one of his abilities is that. And somehow I think it was crappy and at the same time strong..
Maybe you could add Con to your shield damage!
Just trying to make Con a damage-dealing stat. (All other attribute can be put into damage, IIRC )
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BJ
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Still deciding on the Archer talents. I somehow want an ability that adds dex to damage, but I also want it to be non-precision based. I can't figure out how to explain that, though...
Shields: Xtian, what was it exactly that you found disturbing about 3.5 shields again?
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Xtian
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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A level 1 fighter can use a shield to defend himself as good as a level 20 fighter. Or even a level 50 fighter.
However, as I just realized that the problem is the shield mechanics of 3.5 and not the fighter itself.
_________________
solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!" |
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Pitz-Ikko
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | | Still deciding on the Archer talents. I somehow want an ability that adds dex to damage, but I also want it to be non-precision based. I can't figure out how to explain that, though... |
Actually, I think if you're gonna make an archer-based talent tree, you don't have to work with the bow-and-arrow damage - those are already tackled in the Weapon Mastery talent tree. Try extending the range (Enhanced Far Shot?), being very good when shooting at nearer opponents (Improved P-BS?), or even removing the AoO when shooting while threatened (Swift Shot?). Just some ideas. 
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Xtian
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: |
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erwin
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | even removing the AoO when shooting while threatened (Swift Shot?) |
I think that's Close Combat Shot ability, from Order of the Bow Initiate..
Actually, I think what BJ is trying to do is make "archer" Fighter do more damage other than what the Weapon Focus tree provide.
The idea of putting of dex to damage, especially if it's not precision-based. Although it's been done in Tome of Battle. The Shadow Blade feat does that as long as your in a Shadow Hand stance and wielding its preferred weapon.
| Xtian wrote: | | However, as I just realized that the problem is the shield mechanics of 3.5 and not the fighter itself. |
I agree.
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Pitz-Ikko
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Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | | @everybody else: talent tree suggestions are welcome. |
Some ideas and fixes for the archetypes and talent trees.
| Quote: |
ARCHETYPES
A Fighter begins play with a chosen archetype. This represents the Fighters background and training prior to adventuring. If the Fighter does not fit into any of the archetypes presented here, player and DM can arrange an archetype to cater to the situation.
Academic: You have been formally trained in the arts of warfare and battle. You have either been tutored closely by a martial master, or you may hail from a military background. Add Martial Lore and Knowledge (history) to your list of Fighter class skills.
Archer: You prefer to wage your battles over long ranges rather than wade into the heat of melee. Your like bows, guns, crossbows, or any weapon that does not require you to get close to the enemy. Add Concentration and Spot to your list of Fighter class skills.
Brawler: You are most comfortable when you are fighting in close quarters, standing toe-to-toe with your foe. You like swords, axes, hammers, even your own fists, or any weapon that is lethal in close combat. Add Bluff and Tumble to your list of Fighter class skills.
Warrior: You are a veritable tank of might, plowing through your enemies with your sheer strength and taking the blows with sheer fortitude. You determine victory by who is left standing, and you have trained accordingly, mastering both armor and shield to defend your person. Add Balance and Concentration to your list of Fighter class skills.
Grappler: You feel the rush of power when you force your foe to submit, crushing his will through sheer strength. You are at home at very close quarters, preferring to grapple your enemy and crush the life from their bodies. Add Balance and Escape Artist to your list of Fighter class skills.
Cavalier: They say you were born upon the back of a gallant steed, and you have proven them right. You are Death and Destruction personified when seated upon your mount. Add Balance and Survival to your list of Fighter class skills.
TALENT TREES
Starting at 5th level and at every odd-numbered level after that, the Fighter may choose one of the talents presented below. Just as with feats, she must meet the pre-requisites of the talent to learn it.
While talents appear to be like feats, they are distinct in that, once per day, the Fighter can spend one hour to change the talent trees he has chosen (a Fighter who has taken a Fighter feat instead of a talent cannot change it, but see Master of Many Feats, below). She must also meet the pre-requisites of the new talent to be able to take it. If the talent is based on a specific equipment or equipment type, she must have the equipment at hand during the hour.
A fighter can also choose a fighter feat in place of a talent.
Martial Prowess
Talents from the Martial Prowess tree represent both a broader and a deeper understanding of the complex art of combat. A fighter taking talents from this tree bear an edge over their contemporaries in that they can perform more complex maneuvers that others can only dream of.
Martial Adept
**Pre-requisites: Martial Lore 8 ranks, Martial Study feat.
**Benefit: Your Fighter levels now count as full Initiator levels when using or qualifying for maneuvers.
Martial Recovery
**Pre-requisites: Martial Adept talent
**Benefit: You can recover one expended maneuver by concentrating as a full-round action.
Martial Study
**Pre-requisites: Martial Adept talent
**Benefit: As the feat of the same name, except as noted here. This talent may be taken multiple times, choosing a new maneuver each time. Taking this talent does not count towards the limit of the feat.
Martial Prowess
**Pre-requisites: Base attack bonus +12, Martial Adept talent, Martial Recovery talent.
**Benefit: By studying your opponent for at least two, consecutive rounds, you gain a +2 bonus to your attack rolls, a +2 bonus on your weapon damage rolls, and a +2 dodge bonus to your AC against that opponent for a number of rounds equal to your highest Initiator level. You cannot use this ability if you have been distracted during your observation, or if you have performed an action that may impede observation (as determined by the DM).
Weapon Mastery
Talents from the Weapon Mastery tree represent the desire and the passion to bring the greatest potential out of any weapon. A fighter taking talents from this tree bear an edge over their contemporaries in that they are far deadlier with the use of their weapons.
Expanded Weapon Training
**Pre-requisite: Proficiency with the chosen weapon.
**Benefit: Choose one weapon with which you are proficient. All your weapon-related feats now apply to the chosen weapon, even if the feat or ability applies to another weapon.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different weapon each time.
Improved Weapon Focus
**Pre-requisites: Expanded Weapon Training talent, Weapon Focus (any weapon).
**Benefit: The bonus to attack rolls granted by the following feats are doubled: Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus.
Improved Weapon Specialization
**Pre-requisites: Expanded Weapon Training talent, Improved Weapon Focus talent, Weapon Focus (any weapon), Weapon Specialization (any weapon).
**Benefit: The bonus to weapon damage rolls granted by the following feats are doubled: Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization.
Lethal Weapon
**Pre-requisites: Expanded Weapon Training talent, Improved Critical (any weapon).
**Benefit: The critical multiplier for the weapon with which you have the Improved Critical feat increases by one (x2 becomes x3, x3 becomes x4, and so on).
Lethal Strike
**Pre-requisites: Expanded Weapon Training talent, Lethal Weapon talent, Improved Critical (any weapon).
**Benefit: The critical threat range of the weapon for which you have the Improved Critical feat is tripled (19-20 becomes 15-20, 18-20 becomes 12-20, and so on). This effect overlaps (does not stack with) the Improved Critical feat, the Keen weapon property, the keen edge spell or similar effects.
Superior Weapon Focus
**Pre-requisites: Expanded Weapon Training talent, Improved Weapon Focus talent, Improved Weapon Specialization talent.
**Benefit: The bonus to attack rolls granted by the following feat are tripled: Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus. This effect overlaps (does not stack with) the Improved Weapon Focus talent.
Superior Weapon Specialization
**Pre-requisites: Expanded Weapon Training talent, Improved Weapon Focus talent, Improved Weapon Specialization talent, Superior Weapon Focus talent.
**Benefit: The bonus to weapon damage rolls granted by the following feats are doubled: Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization. This effect overlaps (does not stack with) the Improved Weapon Specialization talent.
Armor Mastery
Talents from the Armor Mastery tree represent the rigid discipline in combat that shows how a good defense can be your deadliest weapon. A fighter taking talents from this tree bear an edge over their contemporaries in that they can take the blows better and thus survive the frontlines longer.
Armor Focus
**Pre-requisites: Proficiency with the chosen armor type.
**Benefit: Choose one armor type with which you are proficient (light, medium, or heavy). When wearing armor of the chosen type, its armor bonus is increased by +1.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different armor type each time.
Armored Mobility
**Pre-requisite: Armor Focus talent with the chosen armor type
**Benefit: When wearing armor for which type you have the Armor Focus talent, its maximum Dexterity bonus to AC is increased by +2.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times. The effects stack.
Greater Armor Focus
**Pre-requisites: Armor Focus talent with the chosen armor type, Armor Specialization (PHB2)
**Benefit: When wearing armor for which type you have the Armor Focus talent, its armor bonus is increased by +2. This effect overlaps (does not stack with) the Armor Focus talent.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different armor type each time.
Greater Armor Specialization
**Pre-requisites: Greater Armor Focus talent with the chosen armor type, Armor Specialization.
**Benefit: The damage reduction granted by the Armor Specialization feat for the chosen armor type for which you have the Armor Focus and the Greater Armor Focus talents increases to 4/-.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different armor type each time.
Greater Armored Mobility
**Pre-requisites: Greater Armor Focus talent with the chosen armor type, Armored Mobility with the chosen armor type, base attack bonus +16.
**Benefit: Choose one type of armor for which you have the Greater Armor Focus and Armored Mobility talents. When wearing an armor of the chosen type, you can add its base armor bonus (not including magical enhancements and other bonuses granted by feats and/or abilities) to your touch AC.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different armor type each time.
Shield Mastery
Talents from the Shield Mastery tree represent the inherent balance between offense and defense that can be unlocked from the use of a shield. A fighter taking talents from this tree bear an edge over their contemporaries in that they can switch effortlessly from offense to defense and vice-versa when the situation calls for it.
Shield Focus
**Pre-requisite: Proficiency with the chosen shield type.
**Benefit: Choose a type of shield with which you are proficient. When using a shield of the chosen type, its shield bonus to AC is increased by +1.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different shield type each time. Its effect stacks with the Shield Specialization feat (PHB2).
Dual Shielding
**Pre-requisite: Dex 13, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Focus talent with the chosen shield type.
**Benefit: Choose a type of shield for which you have the Shield Focus talent. When using two shields of the chosen type\s, choose one of the shields which full AC bonus adds to your AC (including enhancements). Then, add half of the base shield bonus (minimum +1, not including enhancements) of the other shield to your AC. This extra shield bonus can also be used in conjunction with the Shield Ward feat (PHB2). You lose this extra shield bonus if the other shield is used for a shield bash, even if you have the Improved Shield Bash feat.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different shield type each time.
Greater Shield Bash
**Pre-requisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus talent with the chosen shield type.
**Benefit: Choose a type of shield for which you have the Shield Focus talent. When performing with a shield bash, treat the shield as if it were one size category larger for purposes of dealing damage and/or disarming.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different shield type each time.
Greater Dual Shielding
**Pre-requisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Dual Shielding talent with the chosen shield type.
**Benefit: Choose a type of shield for which you have the Shield Focus talent. When using two shields of the chosen type\s, choose one of the shields which full AC bonus adds to your AC (including enhancements). Then, add the base shield bonus (minimum +1, not including enhancements) of the other shield to your AC. This extra shield bonus can also be used in conjunction with the Shield Ward feat (PHB2). You no longer lose this extra shield bonus if the other shield is used for a shield bash in conjunction the Improved Shield Bash feat (you still lose it if you do not have the feat).
**Special: A fighter can take this talent multiple times, choosing a different shield type each time.
Improved Shield Sling
**Pre-requisites: Shield Sling (PHB2), Shield Focus talent with the chosen shield type, base attack bonus +12.
**Benefit: Choose a type of shield for which you have the Shield Focus talent (light or heavy). When throwing a shield of the chosen type and the attack misses, the shield returns to you at the start of your next turn. Catching the shield does not take any action. If the square from which you have thrown the shield is no longer within 5 feet of you at the start of your next turn, the shield lands on the ground in that square.
If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you can now also use a thrown shield to make a disarm attempt. Your target resists the disarm attempt as normal, and you lose your size bonus (but not a size penalty) on your disarm check.
**Special: A fighter can take this talent up to two times, choosing a different shield type each time (light or heavy).
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Q
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Very Old Dragon
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Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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isn't there a cavalier class already? what about the overlap?
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Q wrote: | | isn't there a cavalier class already? what about the overlap? |
The Cavalier PrC is different from the Cavalier fighter. Will explain the difference when we cook up Cavalier Talents. Besides, why let a PrC interfere with the strength of a base class?
@Pitz-Ikko: Wow. You actually took the time to do that. (I need a worshipping smiley...) Thanks a lot. I'll be reading up on it over the next few days. And a shield tree! I like...
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erwin
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Master of None
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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How about an unarmed fighting talent tree?
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There is happiness for those who accept their fate. There is glory for those who defy their fate
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
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| Location: Abu Dhabi |
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| erwin wrote: | | How about an unarmed fighting talent tree? |
Unless you're thinking about developing "martial arts styles," it should be covered by the Weapons Mastery talent tree (as "unarmed strike" is considered a weapon as per Weapon Focus and related feats).
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A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I, too, agree with the Henio.
With regards to Dual shielding, while I agree with want you want to do, maybe there's a simpler way to word it... Hmm, let me ponder on it.
The rest are really really excellent, Pitz-Ikko. Will most probably incorporate them soon.
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Added in most of Pitz-Ikko's fixes. Many thanks to our resident henio.
Am still reviewing the Shield Mastery talent tree, It's not that I don't like it; more like, I'm thinking of a simpler way to word the talents.
And oh, can anyone think of something to put in that level 3 slot? It's creepily empty...
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | Added in most of Pitz-Ikko's fixes. Many thanks to our resident henio.
Am still reviewing the Shield Mastery talent tree, It's not that I don't like it; more like, I'm thinking of a simpler way to word the talents.
And oh, can anyone think of something to put in that level 3 slot? It's creepily empty... |
You're welcome, and it's no prob at all - it actually helps to kill time in this unbelievably boring place.
As for Ftr 3, it's either you give another bonus feat (which will really buff the class even more), or just let it be, with the BAB +1, Ref +1 and Will +1 as the bonuses for that level.
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A little surprising, really...
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