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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: Starcraft (Discussion Thread) |
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Alright. This is an HGC project that me, Lord of Pwnage, and others want to start. A starcraft pen-and-paper RPG, using the D20 system.
Things to discuss:
*Should we use D20 modern (future) as a basis, or should we stick to normal D20? (Save progressions in modern are alien to me, while their wealth system is less preferable to purchasing stuff via "minerals" (gp). However, the fast Hero, Smart Hero, etc prolly is more preferable compared to the "more specialized" core D20 classes that we will develop ourselves.
*Protoss Racial Traits (Abi Modifiers, LA, etc)
*Handling Psionics: Magic does not exist in Starcraft, although Psionics are prevalent (The protoss are naturally psionic, telepathy being their only form of communication as they lack mouths. Plus, Archons/Dark archons are purely Psionic entities. i do not know how to handle this yet).
*Weapon Designs: Examples are the Psi-Blades/Warp Blades, Charon missiles, etc. Mecha/vehicles, such as Goliaths, Dragoons, etc, also fall into this category.
*Zerg: Should they be a playable race? I think their selective evolution leaves much to be desired balance-wise.
All contributions are appreciated. With any luck, this setting can become online by June. 
_________________
Nosfecatu Publishing |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think we should hammer out the basics first. Once we have a solid basic campaign structure, everything else should follow.
A few of my general ideas:
-I am of the opinion that vehicular combat should be another animal altogether. Although we certainly could integrate it into the game, it can't be on the same level as more common classes, etc. For example, let's say we had a Battlecruiser Pilot PrC, and players who took levels in that class could use Battlecruisers in normal encounters. Videogame-wise (VGwise), it would take an entire battalion of marines to take down one Battlecruiser. Giving a PC that sort of advantage for even the most mundane encounters would imbalance the game.
In addition, this approach allows us to eschew certain complications involving flight in combat. This effectively allows us to minimize situations wherein PC Firebats/Zealots/what-have-you are useless.
-Three races is theoretically fine. A player's choice of race, however, will necessarily restrict the type of classes he can take. There will be different character classes for Terran, Zerg, and Protoss. I say we defer from the d20 modern selection of classes and simply make our own. There are tons of available ideas, at any rate.
-Regarding races, I think it will be reasonable for each one to have a "basic" example of their race. Generally, these basic classes will have no attribute adjustments, no LA, etc. In addition, they should be the basis for all the traits that are common for their race (e.g. Terran could be much like the DnD human, Zerg could have natural armor bonuses, Protoss have a "split hp pool", with one half representing their shields and the other their actual hp. Moreover, as in the VG, protoss shield hp should regenerate over time, similar to fast healing, but also susceptible to things like emp, etc).
Now, to add variety to the game, certain examples of races could come from different places. Terrans could be trained at different outposts that affect their specialties accordingly, Zerg could be spawned from different colonies with different levels of mutation, and Protoss could come from different home regions, also with corresponding specialties. This allows us to add different abilities, racial hit die, LA, etc.
-Saves should probably conform to DnD standard. Same with BAB, etc.
-Psionics should replace magic almost entirely. Magic is practically nonexistent in Starcraft, as it happens.
-Weapons should be split according to race, and a particular class should have a particular list of weapons available to it. Zerg weapons are strictly natural, but certain materials can be "augmented" to the Zerg natural weapon arsenal and removed at will.
I have a few more ideas, but they're more specific, so I'll be writing them in a separate post.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
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| Location: Abu Dhabi |
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, any StarCraft RPG will just be a modification of the d20 Modern/Future rules. It's practically all there: combat in 3D and no gravity, advanced weaponry, monsters, the entire package.
If you're planning to create classes for the Zerg and the Protoss, you'll be in for *years* of work, dudes and dudettes! And lots of playtesting! 
_________________
A little surprising, really...
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
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| Location: Korriban |
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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I'll have to agree in general with pitz here, as the RAW in D20 modern and future are already pretty decent, and if the purchase DC system is a bit dodgy, then you can just ditch it easily. Rules for vehicles and equipment are already incorporated into the Modern/Future/FutureTech/Cyberpunk books. The thing is that the structure of Future et al is really more along the lines of a "toolbox", giving you a broad panorama of rules to work with, and the real work really is in deciding which modules to keep and which ones to dump.
The class system for d20 modern is already ok, especially since it seems to replicate the more "rounded" personalities and heroes we get in a more techno-modern setting. I can bring d20 modern around if anyone wants a read, as well as d20 future, future tech, and cyberpunk softcopies by request.
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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The Zerg:
The Zerg are particularly tricky when it comes to choosing them as player characters. My idea is that they should start out as drones, as in the VG, and mutate upon the player's choice of class. Sentient Zerg aren't impossible to work with; they should be somewhat like sentient undead. Most NPC Zergs however should have minimum intelligence.
In the RPG, let us theoretically assume that a process to separate Zerg from the hivemind. This rationalizes why certain Zerg would even bother fraternizing with Terrans/Protoss. Likewise, any Terran/Protoss who wishes to further the cause of the Zerg can establish a connection with the hivemind (in fact, this should be necessary for Terran/Protoss PCs who wish to participate in mostly Zerg campaigns). Any non-Zerg PC who joins the Zerg in this manner should gain the Infested template, which, for purposes of simplicity, probably should not have a corresponding LA.
Some sample classes (both base classes and PrC's):
Terran:
-Soldier: a fighter/barbarian type adept at using Terran weaponry and with the ability to use stim packs to enter a state similar to a barbarian's rage. Soldiers can choose to be either a marine or a firebat. Marines have longer range and can attack flyers but do less damage, while firebats do more damage.
Possible Soldier PrC's:
-Stimpack Dependant: a soldier so dependent on stimpacks that he's learned to create his own, custom stimpacks with different effects on his efficiency in battle.
-Heavy Gunner: soldiers who give up mobility for the protection of heavy armor and big, big guns. Heavy gunners should have access to the biggest non-vehicle Terran guns in the game.
-Goliath Warrior: a soldier who fulfills the role of Goliath. GWs are skilled with the use of anti-air weaponry. However, they do not/cannot actually ride Goliaths, and as such they retain their soldier armor proficiencies. Thus, they can theoretically, they can take out a Terran Wraith/Protoss Scout/Zerg Mutalisk at a 1-for-1 ratio at max level.
-Siege Commando: a soldier who replaces the Siege Tank. SCs are capable of causing splash damage to far-away targets, but have close to no close-combat skills. I figure we could have SCs take 1d3 rounds to assemble/disassemble their heavy equipment. This makes them vulnerable in close encounters, but if they work in conjunction with scouts, they can be very effective.
-Medic: similar to a cleric. They fulfill very specialized roles in the game, similar to the Science Vessel in the VG.
Some Medic PrCs:
-Combat Healer: gives medics access to a few simple weapons, giving them some combat prowess, while also progressing the effectiveness of their curative abilities.
-Irradiant Technician: a PrC that focuses on the irradiate ability similar to that of the science vessel. Irradiant technicians are well equipped to take out clusters of Zerg colonies.
-EMP Trooper: same same, except with the EMP shockwave. This PrC has all the tools for dealing with tough-to-kill Protoss.
-Comsat Scout: similar in function to the comsat station. Skilled at reconnaisance and has the ability to "scry" on particular location at certain intervals.
-Ghost: A jack-of-all-trades type. They can specialize in stealth, infiltration, diplomacy, or combat with "accessories"
Some Ghost PrCs:
-Mine Jockey: proficient with and can create their own custom mines. Great with stealth and such.
-True Ghost Adept: master of the arts of stealth and infiltration, virtually undetectable.
-Nuclear Agent: has the fearsome ability to summon a nuke 1x/wk.
-Tech Specialist: proficient with various different kinds of special weaponry such as grenades, mines, etc.
Zerg:
-Zergling: Melee combatant who specializes in speed. Not as damaging as the Zealot, but are skilled at hit-and-run tactics. I figure we should give Zerglings limited Leadership-esque abilities, so they can have Zergling cohorts of lesser abilities than their own.
Some Zergling PrCs (Evolutions):
-Ultralisk: loses all the mobility abilities and cohorts of the Zergling, but adds more hp, thicker armor, and more damage.
-Mutalisk: gives Zerglings flight and "chain" ranged attacks, but also loses some mobility and all cohort abilities.
-Hydralisk: less mobile than the Zergling, but have ranged attacks and can attack flyers.
Some Hydralisk PrCs (Evolutions):
-Lurker: loses the ability to attack flyers, but a formidable ground unit who can burrow to hide.
-Queen: gains flight, also gains a small number of spells.
(More Zerg classes later perhaps; it's difficult for me to think of a lot of Zerg fluff)
Protoss:
-Zealot: melee combatant. Not as mobile as the Zergling, but better armored and can deal significantly more damage.
-Dragoon: ranged combatant. Adept with plasma cannons and such, can attack flyers.
-Templar: a Protoss psion with a number of abilities. Has access to the High Archon PrC.
-Dark Templar: a melee combatant that can deal large damage but relies more on stealth and mobility. Has access to the Dark Archon PrC.
Not too many PrCs for the Protoss... same reason as Zerg. In any case, those are my specifics thus far.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Here are some quick ideas:
StarCraft RPG in general
I don't think *all* the creatures presented in the StarCraft game should be playable. Hell, I consider the Ultralisk to be a near equal of the Tarrasque!
Maybe it would be simpler if some of the roles in the game are instead turned into classes themselves. Good examples are the Protoss templars, which are very akin to warlocks and shadowdancers. Just make one Terran race, a Zerg race, and a Protoss race, and have them choose their roles from there. The funny thing is, with this system, a Protoss living with Terrans can come out as a Marine! 
Zerg
All playable Zerg have been separated from the Hivemind and thus are very confused and mentally unstable, not used to having control of their own thoughts. They become akin to a Frenzied Berserker, very prone to their passions and urges, especially their bloodthirst. Upon taking physical damage, they enter a Frenzy. Likewise, they suffer penalties to saves against the mental abilities of Overlords and those hive controlling thingies.
Any Infested character must make an opposed Will save against his/her controller for any action the controller deems unworthy. This should work like the Ego score effects of intelligent items.
Protoss
Basically psionic. Maybe they have racial power point reserves and power-like abilities, like force screen and inertial armor so many times per day, and telepathy out to 100 ft.
Terran
Well...umm...human...perhaps with some evolutionary feature that makes them somewhat more suitable for no-gravity, no-atmosphere scenarios than the usual human.
_________________
A little surprising, really...
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Some thoughts:
*Dragoons are basically dead protoss. Their organic bodies close useless, they rely on this "dragoon suits" to remain existent. Thus, i believe Dragoons are not a class per se, but a template that can be applied to continue a character who was KIA.
*Giving Protoss a seperate shield pool distinct from hp is messy. For simplicity, I think all Protoss have Inertial Armor as a psi-like ability na lang, ala Githzerai. Not as exact as the RTS, but more d20-friendly. Their Vehicles should likewise have deflection bonuses to AC, I suspect. As for Racial traits, Low Con, High Cha, Int? They definitely should have LA, then.
*Ghosts are specialists in that they are genetically engineered terrans, and thus have psionic capability. Really, I think the Wild Talent Feat emulates this already. Ghosts, therefore, are definitely Human PrC's.
*I don't think every vehicle/mecha requires it's own PrC. Let's just have a Pilot PrC, and let him buy his own Goliath Unit with his own resources using his own cash(err, minerals, whatever). He could even buy upgrades. (Revan, more help on this end. You have more experience Mecha-wise to pull this one off) And, oh, Protoss vehicles should require Psionic capability to handle, similar to the Githyanki Airships.
WAIT!!!!
What we're currently doing is messy. Let us agree to discuss things one at a time. So, since PHB chapter1 starts with races, I think we should discuss racial traits/culture first. Agreed?If so, let me start:
*Terrans are basically Human. Minor adjustments.
*Protoss. Before we discuss Zerg, let us 1st establish this race, since it's closer to Humanoid and thus easier to work with.Some concerns:
-They have thick, otherwise hairlike stuff growing at the back of their heads, supposedly as some "extension" of their brain. But if this is so, we have to explain why having a dark templar cut their "hair" renders them invisible.(no solid game rules yet, we 1st have to establish the flavor of it all).
-They are naturally psionic.
-I had a "protoss zealot" toy once, and their intricate armor clearly leaves the pubic area open, revealing the fact that they have no reproductive appendages. If so, how do they reproduce? There are certainly (although very few) female protoss. If so, perhaps their genitalia is located elsewhere? *gasp* Do they reproduce psionically?
-215standard years is still young for a protoss (Praetor Artanis, age 215, is the youngest ever Praetor, and his psi-hair isn't even very long yet). Zeratul,2nd of the Dark templars, is at least a thousand, while his Matriarch Raszagal is ten millenia old (I think she is one of the very few Protoss that old). So, does that mean they don't die of old age? Methinks this is plausible, since their warrior-based culture ensures that very few Protoss live that long anyway.
-Are we agreed that they should have bonuses to dex,int, and cha, and a penalty on Con?
_________________
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: |
What we're currently doing is messy. Let us agree to discuss things one at a time. So, since PHB chapter1 starts with races, I think we should discuss racial traits/culture first. Agreed? |
Agreed. We'll hold off on the other, more specific bits, then. 
| Quote: | | Terrans are basically Human. Minor adjustments. |
I concur. If it were up to me, Terrans would be functionally equivalent to Humans.
| Quote: | Protoss...
...are naturally psionic. |
Again, I agree. Sorry to push my point, however, but I still think we could use a split hp pool. Except for simplicity's sake, maybe we could just use fast healing, which disappears whenever someone uses an EMP.
In retrospect, though, inertial armor could work as well. Again, it would have to be disabled in an EMP, though.
| Quote: |
-215standard years is still young for a protoss (Praetor Artanis, age 215, is the youngest ever Praetor, and his psi-hair isn't even very long yet). Zeratul,2nd of the Dark templars, is at least a thousand, while his Matriarch Raszagal is ten millenia old (I think she is one of the very few Protoss that old). So, does that mean they don't die of old age? Methinks this is plausible, since their warrior-based culture ensures that very few Protoss live that long anyway. |
I'm still of the opinion that there ought to be a "base race" for each of the three races, which doesn't have LA. Making it so the Protoss don't die of old age might cause some balance issues, and would thus require at least LA +1 (I estimate that at least since this feature is part of several PrC's). So maybe we could hold off on the age issue right now.
| Quote: | | -Are we agreed that they should have bonuses to dex,int, and cha, and a penalty on Con? |
Definitely int bonus, con penalty. Maybe dex bonus as well, but that's still debatable. I wouldn't give Protoss a cha bonus, however. Although they're a pretty peacable people, I get the impression that they're only helping out Terrans because they absolutely must. That's just me, though. Gamewise, however, this also offsets some of the potential Protoss LA, so you know, bonus.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Do we really need to confine ourselves to LA+0? I don't agree with this, especially when we start discussing Zerg.
Let's stick to Protoss...
We could give them a maximum age (I'm thinking elf here), and we could just say the the ones who are over 1000 standard years are special cases already. (The typical Executor, let's take Tassadar, is about 400++ years old)
| Quote: | Except for simplicity's sake, maybe we could just use fast healing, which disappears whenever someone uses an EMP.
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Fast healing in DnD is an epic feat, ie, giving a race fast healing makes them good candidates for LA increase.
I do agree that however the shield is represented will be nullified in an EMP shockwave. Other powers of EMP will be discussed when we get to ship weapons.
So how's this?
* -2Con,+2Int.
*Naturally Psionic. Protoss naturally have 2 power points/day. However, unless they take a Psionic Class, these power points cannot be used for anything.
*Psi-like Abilities: 1/day- Inertial Armor. Manifester Level equals one half total HD, or Class manifester level, whichever is higher. (Shield batteries, AP's could conceivably be used to give more uses of this power.)
Those are the only stuff I've cooked up so far. I'm still not closing the shield pool idea, though. Anyone else care to share on this issue?
Maybe the Dark Templars, flavor-wise, are cloaked because with limited psi-power, detect psi can't find them easily. Wala lang.
Right now, I think the above stats more or less balances it to have LA+0. Objections will be noted.
_________________
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe not LA +0 in all cases, but I do think we should try to keep LA at a minimum.
That said, I think the abovementioned Protoss stats work fine.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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BJ's Protoss looks good. Neways, here're some ideas:
Protoss
* -2 Con, +2 Int
* Naturally Psionic: Protoss have a reserve of 2 power points. This is in addition to any granted by a manifesting class that the protoss has.
* Psi-like Abilities (1HD): 3/day - inertial armor, vigor (ML 1/2HD)
* Psi-like Abilities (10HD): 1/day - inertial barrier (ML 1/2HD)
* Telepathy 100-120 ft.
* Possible Level Adjustment +2 to +4
Zerg (Base, without factoring evolution)
* +2 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
* +2 to +3 natural armor
* Darkvision 100-120 ft.
* Tremorsense 60 ft.
* Special Attacks (8HD): Poison bite (injury, DC 10+1/2 Con mod, 1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex)
* Special Attacks (15HD): Pounce
* Possible LA +2 to +4
_________________
A little surprising, really...
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and perhaps land-based Zerg should also get the burrow ability at a certain point? Iirc, even drones could burrow once you buy it from the hive thingy.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| boy_bakal wrote: | | Oh, and perhaps land-based Zerg should also get the burrow ability at a certain point? Iirc, even drones could burrow once you buy it from the hive thingy. |
Perhaps the Zerg should have the Evolution ability that functions almost like the Druid's shapechanging (PHB2) ability.
Zerg
* +2 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
* Medium
* Speed 40 ft
* +2 to +3 natural armor
* Darkvision 120 ft.
* Natural Weapons: Bite (1d6 piercing and slashing) and claw (1d4 slashing)
* Special Attacks: Poison, Pounce, Rend, Venomous Spit
* Special Ability: Evolution
Poison: Upon reaching 5HD, a Zerg's bite can inflict a deadly poison. The poison deals 1d6 points of Dexterity damage and another 1d6 Dex damage a minute later, but a Fortitude save (DC 11 + 1/2 Con modifier) can be attempted for each instance to negate the effect.
Venomous Spit: Starting at 12HD, a Zerg can spit forth a vile venom. As a ranged attack (30 ft. range increment), the Zerg can inflict poison upon its target. This poison is similar to the one used with the Zerg's bite and also has the same DC.
Evolution: As a Zerg gains Hit Dice, its natural abilities grow, in lieu of its race's hunting lifestyle. A starting Zerg character chooses an evolutionary chain to follow: Lurker, Mutalisk, or Ultralisk.
Lurker: A Lurker Zerg has a burrow speed of 30 ft., which increases to 60 ft. at 5HD.
At 9HD, the Lurker gains the ability to send spikes shooting up to 5 ft. from the ground along a 60-ft. line, which extends to a 120-ft. line at 15HD. This ability can only be used when the Zerg is burrowed and only as a full-round action.
Mutalisk: Flight [See the Raptoran traits from Races of the Wild.]
Ultralisk: [While I'm still thinking of something not overpowered...] An Ultralisk Zerg has a +6 natural armor, in place of the customary natural armor of other Zerg. This natural armor increases by +2 at 10HD, and another +2 at 18HD.
At 9HD, an Ultralisk Zerg becomes Large and gains tusks, which can be used as natural weapons (2d6 slashing).
At 15HD, an Ultralisk Zerg becomes Huge and its tusks now deal greater damage (2d8 slashing). It also gains the swallow whole ability.
_________________
A little surprising, really...
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:00 am Post subject: |
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Actually, for the Zerg we're exploring a potential direction for PCs to take. That is the introduction of a brand new breed of Zerg spawned by Kerrigan, a breed that exhibits humanoid qualities. For now let's just call them... hmm... Zerrans (hehe).
Alright, so the Zerrans are different from Infested beings because Zerrans start out as Zerg. Also, they are for all intents and purposes separated from the overmind... at least, they appear to be. Although most Zerrans still answer to Kerrigan, a large number of them have been able to establish small colonies independent of cerebrate influence. These renegade Zerrans are hunted voraciously by Zerg "retrievers" who wish to reestablish their connection to the overmind. The Terrans now see this as an opportunity to sway the Zerrans to their side, and so the Zerrans turn out to be valuable allies.
Gamewise, this means we can have players use Zerg characters that interact with non-Zerg PCs in a believable manner. It would be difficult to rp a Zergling/Hydralisk, after all. We can tone down their abilities somewhat because, unlike previous Zerg, they resemble the more balanced Terrans in anatomy. However, we can also give them access to Zerg classes, which is BJ's idea.
Now, Zerg classes are different from SC canon in that they don't represent different Zerg broods, but are similar to DnD canon in that they represent different disciplines and branches of training for specialized tasks. One example is the Hunter Killer, which is your typical mindless fighting Zerg.
Also related to classes, the Zerran is interesting in that we can create a class that allows it to assume "aspects" of its Zerg bretheren (exactly like the Druid's wild shape class feature, only we use iconic Zerg creatures like the Zergling, Hydralisk, etc.).
But wait! Does this mean we won't allow PCs to play Zerglings, Hydralisks, and other various Zerg critters? Not necessarily. PCs can still create straight-up Zerg characters, and the process will be more or less similar to how monster PCs are created in DnD. This allows us to restrict Zerg as mostly the "monsters" in the campaign, as is the case in SC. While this means Zerg get the short end of the stick in that, unlike the Terran and the Protoss, they're the only race whose basic classes (Zerg, Hydralisk, etc.) aren't available to PCs per se, this does add more realism in that we can now be more accurate with natural armor, creature abilities, etc. without having to worry about players not playing our Zerg classes because of steep racial hit die/LA adjustments.
I know the above stretches Starcraft canon quite a bit, and it will mean that our setting will necessarily take place after the Brood War, but I think we should explore this path (or a similar alternative) a bit. I figure it makes Zerg more playable, and also adds some nice hooks to the story (i.e. are the Zerrans truly independent of the overmind, or are they just part of Kerrigan's plan for complete interstellar domination?).
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Nice idea. I just think that a Zerran shouldn't be able to "wild shape" directly into a Lurker or whathaveyou as a racial ability, but just an aspect of that form. This "wild shaping" ability, which allows for complete transformation into the new form, should be granted by a class.
Also, maybe Zerrans get a -4 to -2 penalty on saves against the powers of a Cerebrate or a higher Zerg-controlling lifeform. This shows that Zerrans are still too close to the true Zerg in terms of evolution or generation.
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A little surprising, really...
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erwin
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Master of None
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Evolution: As a Zerg gains Hit Dice, its natural abilities grow, in lieu of its race's hunting lifestyle. A starting Zerg character chooses an evolutionary chain to follow: Lurker, Mutalisk, or Ultralisk.
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Lurker? Shouldn't it be a Hydralisk first? and why is a zergling not an evolution choice?
BTW the "Zerrans" are actually still not an official race of Starcraft, though it was mentioned/previewed in the game.. Is it wise to let Zerrans be playable though Blizzard has not even made a game that uses this character?
just trying to clarify things...^^
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There is happiness for those who accept their fate. There is glory for those who defy their fate
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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@Pitz-Ikko: yes, the "wild shape" ability (let's refer to it as mutation, for simplicity) is only accessible via class levels and is not a racial trait. however, non-Zerg cannot take levels in those classes. of course, for all intents and purposes, Zerrans gain the Zerg subtype, which means it's all totally legal.
I'm thinking base mutation classes should have certain "Zerg form trees". This allows players who choose the Hydralisk tree to eventually reach the Lurker stage, as opposed to just allowing any old Zerran to turn into a Lurker straight out.
Or, one variation on this is having all classes able to attain higher Zerg forms, but at different rates of progression (i.e. some attain form A at 5 HD, others at 8 HD, and so on with other forms). In addition, players get to choose the form they want to be able to take on, as long as they meet the prerequisites for that form (i.e. Lurkers will require that you have access to the Hydralisk form, etc.)
@erwin: admittedly, yes, it's unofficial... but it will be our Starcraft game world anyway, so we can make additions as necessary I think. and since we're not selling this stuff, I don't suppose we're violating any copyright laws, so... yeah.
The way it's looking, it seems as though each race is of more significance as opposed to, say, in DnD. Not only do races have their own flavor, they also limit the PC's choice of class. So, I dunno, I suppose we really need to devote a lot of our time towards getting the races right...
EDIT: Regarding the mutation ability... BJ and I talked about it, and we realized that perhaps it would be cleanest to just throw it all in one class, the Zerg Mutator. From there players can choose to adopt aspects for which they meet the prerequisites, which could come in the form of feats, skills, and, most importantly, known Zerg aspects.
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | BTW the "Zerrans" are actually still not an official race of Starcraft, though it was mentioned/previewed in the game.. Is it wise to let Zerrans be playable though Blizzard has not even made a game that uses this character? |
You're referring to the abominations that Zeratul found? The ones being engineered by Samir Duran, who claims that his "mistress" is young and naive, and he answers to a much older master?
 If yes, they are protoss-zerg hybrids, not zerrans.
iirc, the protoss and zerg were both created by the same race, who called themselves the Xel'naga. (STORY TIME!! My apologies if it's terribly shortened)
The Xel'naga as a race had one ultimate dream: To create the perfect life form. Playing with biology, they eventually have come to believe that they created the supreme race in the form of the Protoss. Extremely intelligent, and able to live for long periods of time, they believed that they created the best race of thinkers that the galaxy has ever known.
However, rifts amongst the Protoss themselves devolved into violence. Instead of peaceful measures, these psionic creatures used their awesome abilities in the Arts of War. Eventually, the Protoss were divided into two; those who follow the Conclave and its Templars, and the outcast, Dark Protoss.
Disgusted, the Xel'naga left Aiur and decided to start anew. They have learned from the mistake known as the Protoss. They now see that although intelligence is necessary, individualism can still shatter a race apart.
That is when they created the Zerg. Unlike their predecessor race, the Zerg were given the ability to become what they want, when they want, by granting them the ability to contol their own evolution. But, to prevent the chaos that befell the Protoss, they gave the Zerg ONE restriction; thay lack free will, save for one.
The Overmind. Other Zerg would be next to nothing compared to the will of the Overmind. Thus, the race became plentiful, and yet they remained united.
The Xel'naga saw it all, and it was good.
Now, as the race started to encompass the worlds, the Overmind realized that even his insanely powerful psionic capability was not sufficient to control all the Zerg. Thus, he approached his Xel'naga Masters, asking them to allow him to "mutate" a new brain-type Zerg; the Cerebrates. Thus, all the Overmind has to do is control the Cerebrates, and they, in turn, control the swarms.
The Xel'naga wanted their perfect race to multiply across the worlds, and they believed the Overmind's idea was good.
The zerg then proceeded to consume the Xel'naga. The creators stood no chance. The zerg were, after all, the perfect race.
It was during this time that the first Cerebrates appeared. Whether they are the mutaions of the Xel'naga, or simply the result of consuming them, only the Overmind knows. What is certain is that from then on, the Zerg sought to infest the other races with their mutations, making the whole of the galaxy...
Perfect.
**********
Some details there are dodgy, but that's the Xel'naga as I remember them to be. And my theory is, the protoss-zerg hybrids are the attempts of a surviving Xel'nagan to revivie his own race.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Now, regarding the Zerg...
My original idea was, Zerg will have some sort of "Paragon Class", as what White Wolf did with World of Warcraft. To prevent the hassles of level adjustment, you can take the Zerg class (3level class), which prolly counts as aberration HD, and they could slowly take on the aspects of "a typical Zerg"...
However, the Zerran concept looks good. Just polish up the concepts, until we eventually get nice Zerran stats.
I also like Pitz's protoss. But if Protoss are LA+2, then I think we should eventually have players start at level3.
I'll focus on designing some classes for this RPG. I'll post the drafts eventually, and I'll allow you guys to comment away. For now, though, stick to the Zerg discussion; it's interesting.
Ideas: We'll go with the D20 modern (future) base classes, but will be designing our own advanced and prestige classes. With regards to Psionics, I'm thinking of allowing more than what a standard D20 modern game offers.
Some Advanced Classes: Psion, Soldier, Weapon Specialist (?), Spy/Investigator, etc. (Ideas are welcome), Pilot, Mecha Expert, etc.
Some Prestige Classes (most of which are race-dependent.PrC's are targetted to be taken starting at level12-13, and thus they will only be five-level classes): Hunter Killer, Medic (I'm thinking psi-Medic here, mundane healing sucks)... Psionic PrC's are exciting, and will prolly allow you acces to up to level 7 powers. Examples: Queen, Ghost, High Templar.
Example: Sarah Kerrigan was originally a Terran Fast/Smart with Psion levels. She started taking ghost levels just before becoming infested, in which case she started taking Queen levels.
For the typical Zerg (the non PC ones), I'm thinking of having "baseline zerg" such as a quadruped, a slitherer, and a flier. Each baseline has starting HD, speed, and other abi's, but retain basic Zerg abi modifiers. Certain "Zerg Feats" can allow me to custom these baseline creatures so that they can eventually take on the form of something we are familiar with.
Examples:
*A zergling would have the quadruped base, mutated to samall, maybe a level of fast.
*A Queen is a flier, with (strangely enough) levels in smart, eventually going to Psion and then to the Queen PrC.
*An Ultralisk is a quadruped, with levels in strong/tough, Weapon Specialist maybe for his Kaiser blades (am I using the right term?), and perhaps increased HD to allow for his size increase.
Is this too messy?
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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The Zerg quadruped, slitherer, flyer idea works for all Zerg classes so far, but this kind of limits the amount of new Zerg we can come up with. Personally, though, I think it may be a tad too complicated than it has to be. I mean, I think it could work, but it'd take some time to get used to.
Right now, let's do a race recap, just so everything's out here in the open.
Terran:
-Standard DnD human traits (extra skill points/level, bonus feat at first level, no ability adjustments)
Zerg:
-Pitz-Ikko's base Zerg with LA, or;
-Pitz-Ikko's Zerg with racial abilities, or;
-The Zerran concept (abilities as yet undetermined)
Protoss:
-BJ's base Protoss, no LA, or;
-Pitz-Ikko's Protoss, with LA
As it happens, it occurs to me that we still haven't determined Zerran racial abilities. For starters, how about:
- +2 Str, -2 Cha: Zerrans exhibit a physical prowess similar to pure bred Zerg, but their residual connections to the Overmind hamper their social skills.
- Medium size
- 30 ft. base land speed
- Zerg: All Zerrans have the Zerg subtype. As such, they automatically qualify for all classes that are available only to Zerg, and they are also unaffected by powers that affect only humanoids, such as dominate person.
- Voice of the Overmind (Ex): Although Zerrans aren't as deeply connected to the Overmind as typical Zerg, there is a faint connection to the will of the Overmind that resides in their own minds. Whenever desired, a Zerran may make a DC 15 Concentration check as a free action to focus on the voice in their heads. If the check succeeds, the Zerran may communicate with other Zerg as if affected by the Tongues ability, gains a +2 racial bonus on all Charisma-based checks when dealing with other Zerg, and is considered a Zerg by all Zerg with less HD than the Zerran. These effects last for one minute/HD of the Zerran.
- +1 Natural Armor bonus: Zerrans are spawned with a light chitinous plating similar to that of pure bred Zerg
- Weapon Proficiency: Zerrans are proficient with all claw, bite, and Zerg venom attacks. Moreover, if a Zerran should ever gain access to an abovementioned natural weapon (as from a template or class feature), that weapon can be augmented as normal.
That's all I've got so far. A lot of their other abilities are prolly dependent on canon Zerg racial traits, of which we have none thus far. I suppose that essentially means that, if we do decide to use Zerrans as a player race, we'll have to come to a consensus on pure Zerg racial traits immediately after. Twice the work, but imho it works a lot more smoothly than trying to force the Zerg as a player race.
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And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
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| Location: 666th Layer of Hell |
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with chic opinion that it will take you years to finish the conversion. First you have to create the prestige classes and tha basic classes plus you have to playtest each class if ever to test their power level. Another thing is if ever you are going to create a story it would be hard if the story line of the supposedly part two of the game changes.
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Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
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| Location: Abu Dhabi |
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | As it happens, it occurs to me that we still haven't determined Zerran racial abilities. For starters, how about:
- +2 Str, -2 Cha: Zerrans exhibit a physical prowess similar to pure bred Zerg, but their residual connections to the Overmind hamper their social skills.
- Medium size
- 30 ft. base land speed
- Zerg: All Zerrans have the Zerg subtype. As such, they automatically qualify for all classes that are available only to Zerg, and they are also unaffected by powers that affect only humanoids, such as dominate person.
- Voice of the Overmind (Ex): Although Zerrans aren't as deeply connected to the Overmind as typical Zerg, there is a faint connection to the will of the Overmind that resides in their own minds. Whenever desired, a Zerran may make a DC 15 Concentration check as a free action to focus on the voice in their heads. If the check succeeds, the Zerran may communicate with other Zerg as if affected by the Tongues ability, gains a +2 racial bonus on all Charisma-based checks when dealing with other Zerg, and is considered a Zerg by all Zerg with less HD than the Zerran. These effects last for one minute/HD of the Zerran.
- +1 Natural Armor bonus: Zerrans are spawned with a light chitinous plating similar to that of pure bred Zerg
- Weapon Proficiency: Zerrans are proficient with all claw, bite, and Zerg venom attacks. Moreover, if a Zerran should ever gain access to an abovementioned natural weapon (as from a template or class feature), that weapon can be augmented as normal. |
Not that I'm wholly opposed to the Voice of the Overmind ability - I just find it weird, almost Overlord-ish. Anyways, I still think Zerrans should get a racial penalty to Intelligence 'coz they aren't that far removed from the Zerg race. And they should still have some weakness against Cerebrates and such Zergs with command over the Hivemind (perhaps a penalty on Will saves against the natural abilities of such creatures).
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A little surprising, really...
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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admittedly, the Voice of the Overmind (or, to be more accurate, Voice of the Cerebrate) ability is still a little iffy. However, I think we can work it out. I just thought that we had to show the Zerran connection to the cerebrates in some form in game. But, given that this part of the story is still speculation, we can drop the cerebrate thing entirely or just find some other way to show the Zerran-cerebrate connection.
As for ability adjustments, perhaps not Int. The one thing that separates the Zerrans from pure bred Zerg is that they are able to think and reason for themselves. As such, I don't think we should hamper that ability of theirs. However, being that they're spawned from the same stuff that Zerg are, they wouldn't have a great deal of common sense (kind of like the Borg from Star Trek). Thus, I think perhaps the penalty must be to Wis as opposed to Int.
BJ actually already mentioned that penalty to saves, I just keep forgetting to add it. Anyway, Zerrans have a -2 penalty to will saves against abilities used by pure bred Zerg such as Overlords, Queens, and Cerebrates.
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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| Joined: 02 Jan 2007 |
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| Location: 666th Layer of Hell |
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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If i may intrude upon the discussion of the overlord it would be best to start to check out the prestige class in the EPH where he could have am.... cohorts thus twould be easier to create an overlord class or creature.
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Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Albeit I believe that allowing a player to play an Overlord would be messy, I think Overlord should be an acquired template, a forced transformation when a certain Zerg has proven him/herself above the others. Same goes for Queen and Cerebrate. Not that I'm truly opposed to them being PrC and all that.
Am I sounding silly or contradictory? Must be all that hashish stuff...
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A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Someday I will post something useful here. |
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Acid Blue
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Old Dragon
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| Joined: 06 Mar 2007 |
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| Location: Somewhere out there... |
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I think i saw an old issue of dungeons that has some helix wars stuff. there might be some mutation rules there for the Zerg
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let M = number of ninja and N = Ninjitsu Level, then N takes the general form of N = a/(bM)^c |
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Acid Blue
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Old Dragon
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| Joined: 06 Mar 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Pitz-Ikko"] | Quote: | As it happens, it occurs to me that we still haven't determined Zerran racial abilities. For starters, how about:
- +2 Str, -2 Cha: Zerrans exhibit a physical prowess similar to pure bred Zerg, but their residual connections to the Overmind hamper their social skills.
- Medium size
- 30 ft. base land speed
- Zerg: All Zerrans have the Zerg subtype. As such, they automatically qualify for all classes that are available only to Zerg, and they are also unaffected by powers that affect only humanoids, such as dominate person.
- Voice of the Overmind (Ex): Although Zerrans aren't as deeply connected to the Overmind as typical Zerg, there is a faint connection to the will of the Overmind that resides in their own minds. Whenever desired, a Zerran may make a DC 15 Concentration check as a free action to focus on the voice in their heads. If the check succeeds, the Zerran may communicate with other Zerg as if affected by the Tongues ability, gains a +2 racial bonus on all Charisma-based checks when dealing with other Zerg, and is considered a Zerg by all Zerg with less HD than the Zerran. These effects last for one minute/HD of the Zerran.
- +1 Natural Armor bonus: Zerrans are spawned with a light chitinous plating similar to that of pure bred Zerg
- Weapon Proficiency: Zerrans are proficient with all claw, bite, and Zerg venom attacks. Moreover, if a Zerran should ever gain access to an abovementioned natural weapon (as from a template or class feature), that weapon can be augmented as normal. |
I agree with Pitz on this but i would suggest an additional +2 Dex, -2 Int, like he said they exhibit physical prowess similar to the pure bred zerg making them faster andstronger than humans and their residue link to the overmind not only hampers their social skills but also affects their free thinking
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let M = number of ninja and N = Ninjitsu Level, then N takes the general form of N = a/(bM)^c |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: |
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-2 wis will work. i really don't want to impose a penalty to int. the main difference between Zerran and Zerg is that they're sentient, and I wouldn't want to downplay the significance of that by penalizing Zerran int scores. think of it this way: Kerrigan is the original Zerran, but did she get any dumber for it?
+2 dex is doable only if we impose additional mental stat penalties, or if we penalize con. as such, i say we forego the dex bonus and just stick with +2 str, -2 wis, -2 cha.
are there any other drastic fixes to be made re: the races? i want the opinions of the major contributors to this thread. personally i think we're good with what we have so far, and can move on to the next matter at hand: classes
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Nemoi
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Wyrmling Dragon
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| Joined: 20 May 2007 |
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Man.. StarCraft 2 has been announced 2 be released soon...
www.starcraft2.com ... god.. the Cinematics are gr8.. and the screenshots are Amazing.. can't wait for the game now... |
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