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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| dark_axis wrote: | | hehehehehe I want to ask anyone if whose is worth signing a contract with a devil or a demon? and who would you suggest??? |
Devil. Benefits are concrete, and if you follow the contract well enough, you can respawn in a more powerful form when you die... and for the record, I recommend Glasya. Think about it:
-Glasya is fairly new, so more followers are important to her. She can be more lenient and/or generous than other archdevils.
-Although technically Mephistopheles (or perhaps Baalzebul) is second in power to Asmodeus, things have been that way for eons upon eons and nothing has changed. Glasya, however, has only just begun her political career in the Nine Hells, and she's already lord of Malbolge. Given some time, she might be able to depose the lords of the lower layers and take their power as her own.
-She's the daughter of Asmodeus. That means that, among the archdevils, she's closest to him. Not only does that powerful devil blood (a drop of Asmodeus' blood is equivalent to a full hit die full hp pit fiend for goodness' sake!) course through her veins, it also means that she most likely learned the game of power from the best.
Bottom line, Glasya is more beneficial in the long run. Once her rise to power starts, she'll remember you as one of her first followers, and that can't possibly be bad. 
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Okay...
After more extensive reading, I have realized that incorporeality is distinct from etherealness. So the stuff about the incorporeal undead are legal after all. 
Next, while the shadow hand maneuvers are obviously shadow related, none of them have the shadow descriptor. This irritates me to now end. They've thought of including alignment descriptors, teleport descriptors etc, but they haven't thought of the shadow descriptor? Gah..... They could at least have included it at least on the description of Shadow Hand.
So, with my amazing overgod powers in the Abyss (9swords) campaign, I declare that all Shadow hand Maneuvers have the shadow descriptor, making them unavailable in the outer planes!  (EDIT:this is not final. Individual cases may vary.)
However, I'm thinking of designing a magic item which is "attuned" to the plane of shadow (alternatively, it could be some element native to the plane of Shadow). Wearing it allows the character to use ShadowHand maneuvers, spells with the shadow descriptor, Shadow Mysteries while on an Outer Plane. The Orc Warlord originally had a "minor artifact" called the Ebony Stone. Maybe I could downgrade it to Magic item status, making Lesser, normal, and Greater Ebony Stones with varying effects. Shadow Hand is a whole ninth of ToB, and it is the 9swords campaign. So I can't just make it useless.
As for regrouping, it's okay. Note that you're miles away from the Defiance. 
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Last edited by BJ on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Glasya, however, has only just begun her political career in the Nine Hells... |
Not true. She's been around for a while, ever defiant against her father. She was elevated to Archduchess status simply because it made her renew her allegiance to daddy big shot.
Although, if she has ever been defiant of Daddy Asmo, why did she never suffer the Lord of Devils' wrath? She must have some trump card, that's why daddy never hurts her. 
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: |
Not true. She's been around for a while, ever defiant against her father. She was elevated to Archduchess status simply because it made her renew her allegiance to daddy big shot.
Although, if she has ever been defiant of Daddy Asmo, why did she never suffer the Lord of Devils' wrath? She must have some trump card, that's why daddy never hurts her. |
Okay, then let me rephrase. She only recently became an archdevil. 
As for the latter... just more reason to sign a contract with her, isn't it?
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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| Location: 666th Layer of Hell |
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Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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well bj you should have told ryan such stuff before the campaign started coz now that you have that ruling his practically useless in the setting.
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Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| dark_axis wrote: | | well bj you should have told ryan such stuff before the campaign started coz now that you have that ruling his practically useless in the setting. |
Yeah, well... 
When I started the arc for Thanatos, I haven't read that part yet. I admit, I had my facts wrong. At first I thought the Outer Planes was disjoint from the Astral, and coterminous with Shadow.
Now, though, I'm coordinating with Ryan for compensations. We're currently in the process of conjuring up a Magic item that allows you to cast shadowstuff even while on the Outer Planes. The price of such an item still needs discussion, though.
Also, the Lord of Pwnage has informed me that only shadow spells whose primary effect depends on shadow are to e countered on the Outer Planes. Although this still makes most Shadow Spells, Shadow Mysteries, and Shadow Hand Maneuvers unavailable, all is not lost. With a successful Spellcraft/Martial Lore check, a character is able to determine (through the DM) if a certain shadow spell or maneuver has an effect in Thanatos.
This is my final ruling on the matter.
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now, though, I'm coordinating with Ryan for compensations. We're currently in the process of conjuring up a Magic item that allows you to cast shadowstuff even while on the Outer Planes. The price of such an item still needs discussion, though. |
Make it either a ring or a rod with either limited uses per day or charge(s) per use. It shouldn't take any action to use the item - activating it becomes part of casting the spell/initiating a maneuver. If you're feeling high and mighty, maybe you can make it a std. action to activate the item, and then the user has to initiate the maneuver/cast the spell on his next turn or the item's use is wasted.
IMO, making the item a continuous effect makes it kinda boring. If there is some limit to its use, it becomes vital for the PCs to figure out how to appropriate the use of the item. Also, by having it useable only so many times allows for its price to go a bit down; if it's continuous-effect, then it shouldn't go any lower than 30,000gp, IIRC.
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A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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What happened last game day? Wasn't around bacause of practicum. Did someone die again? ...
| Quote: | | neither the Plane of Shadow nor the Ethereal plane are coterminous with the Outer Planes. |
I want to hear more of this. I also read Manual of the Planes and realized that ... it was partly reprinted to DMG.
Though from I read your ruling is very much supported by the books. In addition, I want to add this:
| Planar Handbook wrote: | | The astral plane is a conduit to all other planes, while the Ethereal Plane and and the Plane of Shadow both serve as a mean of transportation within the Material plane they are connected to. |
Astral projections will work but .. but ... but .. Hell, why do some outsiders have ethereal plane related spell-like abilities??? I'm confused. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Xtian wrote: | | Hell, why do some outsiders have ethereal plane related spell-like abilities??? I'm confused. |
I guess those abilities kick in when they actually *become* Outsiders. Remember, they aren't Outsiders within their own plane. Of course, this isn't always the case. Then again, WotC assumes games to occur mostly in the Prime Material. WotC assumes too much, making several game material too vague and open to interpretation - which is a strong point of D&D, IMO. The DM's interpretation of the game makes the game interesting.
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A little surprising, really...
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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well what happened last friday was emman signed a contract with us, ryan's character died, phil turned into an outsider after signing a contract with bel. that's all
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Only by confronting your darkest fears can you find the light...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are under some ... misapprehensions.
| Quote: | | -Glasya is fairly new, so more followers are important to her. She can be more lenient and/or generous than other archdevils. |
Archfiends do not care much on worshippers, only influence. And being new, securing herself in her position is her topmost priority rather than accumulating followers.
And Glasya is relatively new, not fairly new. That relatively new might be a decade, century, millenia, or eons ago. Since you guys already made a deal with her it can be said that she has some degree of stability with her position as a Lord of the Nine Hells. Meaning she's there for quite some time, even in outsider standards.
| Quote: | | -Although technically Mephistopheles (or perhaps Baalzebul) is second in power to Asmodeus, things have been that way for eons upon eons and nothing has changed. Glasya, however, has only just begun her political career in the Nine Hells, and she's already lord of Malbolge. Given some time, she might be able to depose the lords of the lower layers and take their power as her own. |
Meph's second in power. Generally speaking the deeper the layer, the more powerful the Lord. But trying to destroy a Lord in his realm is another since there are many factors. I would put Asmodeus as the hardest to kill then either Mephi or DIspater. Mephi is more powerful the DIspater on one-on-one combat but PC's would rather want to kill Mephi than assault Dispater in his Iron Tower.
Devils deposing a Lord requires looong time often by usage of politics and manipulating. Glasya is not safe from her own followers and being relatively new she needs to secure her position first than eyeing other layers. Chances are, she's more likely to get deposed. Being a child of Asmodeus is not a guarantee that she'd be safe there for a long time.
| Quote: | | Bottom line, Glasya is more beneficial in the long run. Once her rise to power starts, she'll remember you as one of her first followers, and that can't possibly be bad. |
Long run, in an outsider's perspective, is really rong. And Glasya is not that young and she have worshippers even before she became a Lord (or Lady). Chances are, you are not one of her first followers. |
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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...and yet Warren Light and Tal-whatever still signed contracts. So hooray for false logic! XD
_________________
And I'm still, still longing. Still cold... so cold. |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| What made you sign in the first place? ... |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: PEER PRESSURE! |
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PEER PRESSURE FTW!
Power! UNLIMITED POWAAH!
Really, everyone was doing it. Now we're all members of one big family! A big, murderous, tyrannical, backstabbing, politicking, infighting, incestuous, incorrigibly evil family ! It's like joining the mob, but so, so, sooo much worse. Omerta has nothing on the :consored: that we're all in now boyos!
_________________
Words are the only bullets in truth's bandolier. And poets are the snipers.
-George Wu (The Hyperion Cantos, Dan Simmons) |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Archfiends do not care much on worshippers, only influence. |
I was gonna correct this, but I realized that it was... uhh... already correct.
| Quote: | | And Glasya is relatively new, not fairly new. That relatively new might be a decade, century, millenia, or eons ago. |
According to FC2, Malagarde the Hag Countess was deposed roughly a year ago. Although we are still free to make it eons ago, I've aligned the timeline to coincide with the FC2 "recent events"...
Why she has stabilized her hold for so fast prolly lies in the swiftness that the Hag Countess was destroyed. She didn't even put up a fight. But hey, I'm just speculating here. Point is, she's already relatively stable, albeit she still doesn't have any Dukes yet. (Her court right now is filled with talented Devils from other layers who were "sidelined" by their former Archdukes, to tone down their ambition a bit (Devil logic is weird. They should know that being sidelined would only make them lust for more power, vis-a-vis, they took Glasya's offer with little thought).
Whether these Baatezu are now loyal to Glasya, or appointed by their "former" Archdukes as spies remains to be seen.
And... Glsya's safe from the other Archdukes because they can still see what happened to Levistus (brrrr...)
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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UPDATE
Okay, we are fast approaching Epic-level. So maybe I should inform you guys already:
Epic Rules
*BA and saves will continue to progress as normal until you reach HD20. After that, as normal, BA/saves don't increase, although a cumulative +1 epic bonus is added to all attack rolls at every odd HD, and a cumulative +1 epic bonus is added to saves at every even HD.
*Epic feats an be taken the moment you reach ECL21.
*Epic Spellcasting is to be discussed later. For the moment, consider Epic Spells BARRED. Of course, I could change my mind. Will finalize the rule by the end of this week.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitz-Ikko wrote: | | Quote: | | Now, though, I'm coordinating with Ryan for compensations. We're currently in the process of conjuring up a Magic item that allows you to cast shadowstuff even while on the Outer Planes. The price of such an item still needs discussion, though. |
Make it either a ring or a rod with either limited uses per day or charge(s) per use. It shouldn't take any action to use the item - activating it becomes part of casting the spell/initiating a maneuver. If you're feeling high and mighty, maybe you can make it a std. action to activate the item, and then the user has to initiate the maneuver/cast the spell on his next turn or the item's use is wasted.
IMO, making the item a continuous effect makes it kinda boring. If there is some limit to its use, it becomes vital for the PCs to figure out how to appropriate the use of the item. Also, by having it useable only so many times allows for its price to go a bit down; if it's continuous-effect, then it shouldn't go any lower than 30,000gp, IIRC. |
Noted. Thanks.
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | | *Epic feats an be taken the moment you reach ECL21. |
Unless this is some house rule, you gain access to epic-only material once you hit character level 21st, which includes racial Hit Dice but not Level Adjustments.
Hence, a character of ECL 21 *may or may not be* eligible for epic feats. I reiterate, this is only RAW; the DM is free to impose any house rule he deems fit for his purposes.
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A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Epic Level Handbook page 5 wrote: | | Regarless of the method by which you achieve 21st level, once you reach that point you are considered an epic character. Epic characters -- those whose character level is 21st or higher ... |
The straightforward interpretation here is ECL and not class levels + HD. This is for PC. Thus ECL 21 character is eligible for epic feats.
Monsters on the other hand are considered epic when they reach 21st HD. Racial HD ignore epic attack bonus and epic save progression but eligible for epic feats. This is as RAW.
So, you are epic if one of the following is true:
1. You have at least 21 HD.
2. You have at least 21 class levels
3. Your ECL reaches 21.
This is quite problematic. For example, a frost giant has 14 HD,bab +10 and ECL 18 (LA+4). The frost giant jarl has 14racial HD, 8 blackguard levels, bab of + 18, and having a LA of +4 it should have ECL of 26. It breaks the rules of epic progressions.
Generally I like BJ's Epic Rules. THere are some minor examples that could be problematic but it's fine since whether PC or monster there are little differences. |
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why she has stabilized her hold for so fast prolly lies in the swiftness that the Hag Countess was destroyed. She didn't even put up a fight. But hey, I'm just speculating here. Point is, she's already relatively stable, albeit she still doesn't have any Dukes yet. (Her court right now is filled with talented Devils from other layers who were "sidelined" by their former Archdukes, to tone down their ambition a bit (Devil logic is weird. They should know that being sidelined would only make them lust for more power, vis-a-vis, they took Glasya's offer with little thought). |
Nothing but Glasyan propaganda. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Let's just say, it's the way I decided to handle epic progression.
An update for the raucus caused by celestial conduit. My final say is, yes, the power will work in the outer planes. Although restrictions are imposed on spells that depend on shadow or Aether, no such resteiction is imposed for using the inner planes. (In fact, the inner planes are not even coterminous with the material).
Although, would anyone object if I errata the power such that the augmentability of it's save DC is similar to the other current powers (eg, every 2ppincrease=+1DC)? It only seems proper, I think.
Anyway, I've almost finalized the Ebony Stones. My current draft is, there will be 3forms (lesser, for 1st to 3rd, normal for 1st-6th, Greater for 1-9th spells, mysteries, or maneuvers). I'm currently cooking up the prices.
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I reiterate that the DM's word is Law! However he wishes to rule shall be so ruled.
However,
| Xtian wrote: | So, you are epic if one of the following is true:
1. You have at least 21 HD.
2. You have at least 21 class levels
3. Your ECL reaches 21. |
IIRC, the SRD supercedes *all* printed works that came before it. Hence, it has more weight rules-wise than EPH in this matter. And it is presented thusly:
| SRD - Epic Level Basics wrote: | | Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level. |
Thus, by RAW, characters achieve epic level at 21st HD (as racial HD are considered racial classes, which are always fave classes for that race).
_________________
A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitz-Ikko wrote: |
IIRC, the SRD supercedes *all* printed works that came before it. Hence, it has more weight rules-wise than EPH in this matter. |
ELH not EPH
What is written in srd is just a conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, nothing more. They didn't change the mechanics but converted the 3.0 elements like DR, Skill points, etc to 3.5.
Epic mechanics did not change. Thus, ECL (HD+LA) also determines whether a character is epic or not.
| SRD - Epic Level Basics wrote: | | Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level. |
Text in bold means ECL, not just total HD.
| Quote: | | Thus, by RAW, characters achieve epic level at 21st HD (as racial HD are considered racial classes, which are always fave classes for that race). |
There is nothing to argue here. We both agree. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, I've thought about it, and have decided:
EPIC SPELLS ARE GTG.
Hehehe. Although, your primary caster has the vow of poverty, so developing EPIC spells will heavily strain him XP-wise (I'm adopting the 1XP/5gp rule here, is that right, Xtian?)
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Xtian
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Goderator
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't plan to take epic spellcasting soon. Game-wise I don't have much time. And character wise, my feats slots are all taken. Though I am seriously considering this since shapechange is capped at caster level 25. |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What is written in srd is just a conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, nothing more. They didn't change the mechanics but converted the 3.0 elements like DR, Skill points, etc to 3.5. |
Not quite. The SRD makes the base rules of the 3.5 D&D System. Cross-check it with the Core Rulebooks (or even ELH) and you'll see what I mean. Don't tell me the changes to Righteous Might is just a conversion from 3.0.
I dunno where it actually came from, but people from some D&D boards I visited said that the SRD supercedes any WotC material presented prior to it.
In my reckoning, Character Level refers to class levels plus any racial Hit Dice (which are treated as monster class levels). Effective Character Level refers to Character Level plus Level Adjustments. They're two different things.
Besides, A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.
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A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Not quite. The SRD makes the base rules of the 3.5 D&D System. Cross-check it with the Core Rulebooks (or even ELH) and you'll see what I mean. Don't tell me the changes to Righteous Might is just a conversion from 3.0. |
I didnt mean all. What I said in that context is the Epic level part. I could even contradict myself if i interpret it out of context.
| Quote: | | I dunno where it actually came from, but people from some D&D boards I visited said that the SRD supercedes any WotC material presented prior to it. |
3.5 SRD supersedes 3.0 DMG or 3.0 PHB or 3.0 MM etc.
| Quote: | | In my reckoning, Character Level refers to class levels plus any racial Hit Dice (which are treated as monster class levels). Effective Character Level refers to Character Level plus Level Adjustments. They're two different things. |
I know.
| Quote: | | Besides, A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. |
I know this too. A creature with 17 HD and LA +3 can get an epic feat when it reaches 18 HD because it is considered epic.
But what we don't agree with is if having an ECL (HD+LA) of 21 is considered epic or not. SRD is silent in this issue.
Let's quote DMG 3.5 instead of ELH or SRD:
| Dungeon Master's Guide page 206 wrote: | | Regarless of the method by which you achieve 21st level, once you reach that point you are considered an epic character. Epic characters -- those whose character level is 21st or higher ... |
Notice that this is the same line from ELH.
Creatures with LA with ECL of 20:
1. Astral Deva (Savage species p 155)
2. Trumphet Archon ( Savage Species p 200)
3. Ghaele (Savage Species p 172)
The book says:
| Savage Species wrote: | | Because these creatures have an ECL of 20, multiclassing requires use of epic level rules. |
So please give me a direct quote or link from SRD or any WotC made book that says that:
1. Total HD determines whether a creature is epic or not and LA has nothing to do with it.
2. SRD epic rules trumphs DMG 3.5 epic rules.
I know this rule sounds illogical since a player who plays a feral half dragon gargoyle who becomes a vampire at fighter level 1 (4 racial HD, LA+17, 21 fighter class, ECL 42, bab 4, epic attack bonus 10 ) will never get two attacks because of epic progression.
While the same creature that will be made by dm will get 4 attacks.
Sucky right? BUt that's it is RAW-wise.
I've seen forum epic adventures that house rule that LA only determines treasure and experience, not to determine if epic rules would apply. |
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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| Joined: 04 Dec 2006 |
| Posts: 3997 |
| Location: Sa sikmura ng Bakunawa |
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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But really, what's this all about if I already gave the house rule?
If the DM says you can get epic feats at level 21, then so shall it be (divine overgod music plays again) 
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Nosfecatu Publishing |
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Pitz-Ikko
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D' Original Henio
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| Joined: 16 Jan 2007 |
| Posts: 719 |
| Location: Abu Dhabi |
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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BJ, my talk with Xtian does not concern your houserule. It's just to clarify RAW.
And, Xtian, I'm afraid I must concede to your point. I asked this topic at another forum and I was referred to p.209 of DMG, under the heading "Monsters As Epic Characters." I don't wanna quote it in light of Open Gaming License (OGL), especially since I'm no lawyer, so feel free to look it up.
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A little surprising, really...
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Xtian
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Goderator
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| Joined: 30 Nov 2006 |
| Posts: 3259 |
| Location: Avernus |
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok then. Let's return to regularly scheduled programming. |
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