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erwin
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Master of None
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hellfire blood is no longer a feat bonus. cool
staff of ruin is no longer Dual Implmnt Caster's best friend
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Other than Hellfire Blood, what didn't they nerf?
There's very little reason to play an orbizard now. It helps with Sleep, but that's about it. Gah, poor U-F 
Salve of Power now works on encounter powers as opposed to L1/5 dailies, which can be abused at high levels actually. Unfortunately I was saving up for that in a game =/ then again, I'm glad I didn't go through with the purchase pre-errata.
Hide Armor Expertise is useless now. Poor Shamans.
Blood Pulse no longer works on forced movement. Also useless, as a blood pulsed opponent will simply stay put.
In all, while the changes are very disappointing from an optimization standpoint, I can see they've addressed quite a large chunk of the problematic builds/items being used. So at least I feel confident 4E won't self-destruct like 3.5 did. Although, to be fair, there are still some degenerate builds out there (like the Feycharger) but those will likely be addressed by future errata.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, I mostly disagree with your comments, b_b:
| boy_bakal wrote: | | There's very little reason to play an orbizard now. It helps with Sleep, but that's about it. Gah, poor U-F |
Hmm, we've all heard of stories where the orbizard utterly dominated in the epic tier. But since we've mostly been contained to heroic and early paragon in all our games, I agree that this will feel like a major change for us. Old Orbizards were pretty much balanced at heroic. But under this change, U-F can still stunlock for 1 extra round with all the penalty stacking at high levels. That's still useful, especially against solos.
At low levels, yeah, OoI is pretty much just useful for the at-will elongation now. Although there's still OoDeception, I suppose. XD
| Quote: | | Salve of Power now works on encounter powers as opposed to L1/5 dailies, which can be abused at high levels actually. Unfortunately I was saving up for that in a game =/ then again, I'm glad I didn't go through with the purchase pre-errata. |
Yeah, at least it got nerfed before you got it. That means all your savings can go to somewhere else. 
| Quote: | | Hide Armor Expertise is useless now. Poor Shamans. |
If a static +2AC is so useless, why do wizards keep on getting leather armor proficiency?
| Quote: | | Blood Pulse no longer works on forced movement. Also useless, as a blood pulsed opponent will simply stay put. |
And thus control their movement. So now it feels like a controller rather than a mega-striker power.
| Quote: | | In all, while the changes are very disappointing from an optimization standpoint, I can see they've addressed quite a large chunk of the problematic builds/items being used. So at least I feel confident 4E won't self-destruct like 3.5 did. Although, to be fair, there are still some degenerate builds out there (like the Feycharger) but those will likely be addressed by future errata. |
One of the points of CharOp (that they claim to adhere to) is that they seek to find broken combos so WotC can address it with errata. I think optimization should be happy that such changes are being brought to the game.
Then again, based on all the threads in CharOp right now, i don't think many of them are indeed happy with the changes.
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| BJ wrote: | | Hmm, we've all heard of stories where the orbizard utterly dominated in the epic tier. But since we've mostly been contained to heroic and early paragon in all our games, I agree that this will feel like a major change for us. Old Orbizards were pretty much balanced at heroic. But under this change, U-F can still stunlock for 1 extra round with all the penalty stacking at high levels. That's still useful, especially against solos. |
In epic, while it's still useful, I don't think it'll be as useful as, y'know, hitting with an attack, or forcing a miss from the opponent. Either of the latter options is bound to be more debilitating; an extra round of stun won't likely turn the tide of battle.
| Quote: | | Yeah, at least it got nerfed before you got it. That means all your savings can go to somewhere else. |
I agree. New Salve is still quite good, to be fair. It's just not something Ilver would use, but hey, it's another way to restore encounter powers
| Quote: | | If a static +2AC is so useless, why do wizards keep on getting leather armor proficiency? |
Because leather armor proficiency doesn't nullify Int to AC.
| Quote: |
And thus control their movement. So now it feels like a controller rather than a mega-striker power.
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I agree that it does suit the controller role more. But as a sub-striker power (which, to me, Blood Mage is all about), it really doesn't work.
| Quote: |
One of the points of CharOp (that they claim to adhere to) is that they seek to find broken combos so WotC can address it with errata. I think optimization should be happy that such changes are being brought to the game.
Then again, based on all the threads in CharOp right now, i don't think many of them are indeed happy with the changes. |
I wasn't talking about optimization the board, I was talking about optimization in general. It's a bit discouraging to think of effective ways to build a character when you have to second guess your choices. Of course people are unhappy; their level 15 (or so) character now looks dramatically different that they pretty much just threw away months of gaming.
Though I appreciate the effort in trying to control power creep, I just wish the whole process were a lot cleaner. But I suppose we have what we have.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:06 pm Post subject: Rebuttal |
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Re: Orb - I guess we'll agree to disagree here. An extra round of stunning (especially with a solo) is as useful to me as either of the things you mentioned, so I think we have irreconcilable opinions on the matter.
| Quote: | | Because leather armor proficiency doesn't nullify Int to AC. |
I believe the assumption here is that such primal characters who take this feat don't have dex or int scores worth mentioning anyway. The major change here, IMO, is that now if you have con 16 and dex 14, HAE isn't necessarily the viable option anymore. But if you have dex/int in the 10's or 11's, this is still a +2.
I stand by that +2 is still something worth taking in a number of builds. And thus, it is not useless.
(Intriguingly, the numbers screw up somewhat at epic. If there's something we could agree on, it's that this feat needs to scale.)
| Quote: | | I agree that it does suit the controller role more. But as a sub-striker power (which, to me, Blood Mage is all about), it really doesn't work. |
Blood Mage's Bolstering Blood can still turn this into a striker-viable power. Otherwise, it's an area burst 3 attack that already deals 2d6+int. The area alone makes it more of a controller spell than a sub-striker spell. But if we look at it under post-PHB 1 standards, that's still quite damaging for something that affects that many enemies, and IMO means it's fit for a sub-striker.
Re: Concluding comments - I agree.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:31 am Post subject: May Update |
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Ladies and gents, I would like to present the May Update (pdf).
It's a little too late for me today, but off the bat:
*Tieflings had their encounter power fixed. It triggers on being hit now, and automatically deals scaling damage. Oh, and it can trigger off Int or Cha.
*Clerics are getting meganerfed. Healer's Lore now only works on powers that spend surges. (Those that restore hp "as if you spent a surge" seem to be a fence case, though, and is up to the DM for now. EDIT: A WotC guy confirms that it shouldn't work.)
*Various conditions have been updated. Dominated gets clarified, and Immobilize is no longer mentioned in Restrained.
*Aid another DC scales now, and failure imposes penalties.
*You can now pull a flying creature down, and forced movement on creatures in water can occur in any direction (as long as the movement still ends in water).
*Aura damage now stacks with other auras (though penalties and the like still don't stack)
*I hear Feychargers have been nerfed, but I do not know the build well enough to comment well on that regard.
*Daggermaster and Pit Fighter both get the anticipated nerfs. They are now rogue/daggermaster and ftr/pit ftr exclusive in their effects.
Since it's late, I'm sure I missed a bunch. Discuss.
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boy_bakal
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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The change to Fey Charge will likely affect the overall DPR of the build. Not that I really know it that well, myself, but then it's always about the DPR with charop 
I am saddened by the changes made to Clerics/Aid Another. I understand why the Astral Seal nerf, in particular, had to be done, but I didn't realize skill challenges needed to be just a wee bit harder to make the game "balanced." I mean, pick on the offensive builds all you want, but please to leave the defensive/rp stuff alone, yeah?
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juaberman
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Old Dragon
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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i like the hange they did to Tieflings. Now I can make a build that doesn't need CHA to use it encounter power (like say...Avenger?)
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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@b_b: I agree with you on the clerics. I didn't really feel like they needed to be nerfed - being the best at healing was the main draw of the class for me. On the issue of Aid Another, however, the 95% chance to fail (with a nat 1 being an auto-fail) at high levels was a bit irritating. They either had to change it as a sure thing (I aid another! You get a +2), or make it scale. They chose the latter, and I'm personally okay with it. If skill challenges are any indication, DC 10+1/2lvl isn't that hard to pull off anyway.
@juaberman: While it was probably needed, it is now quite different from what it originally was. Suddenly, tieflings will play differently in combat. I'm not saying I like/dislike it, but it will be interesting.
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erwin
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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I like the tiefling racial power change. I no longer need to atk to deal my wrath  and it even scales!
lol at Armored Warlord. I knew they'd fixed that
too bad for Avenger/pit fighter and sorcerer/daggermasters out there
@aid another issue: If you're going to try and aid someone with that DC, i think it's better off if you try to pass that skill check alone. I think the aid another skill DC is the same as moderate DCs on skill checks anyway.
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InfinityZero
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Young Adult Dragon
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fey chargers use the Fey Step and Eladrin Swordmage Advance Feat. With the nerf, you now cannot make 2-3 melee basic attacks per turn. I was trying to build one. Oh well |
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Revan
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Sith'ari, Chosen Heart of the Force
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Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| erwin wrote: | | @aid another issue: If you're going to try and aid someone with that DC, i think it's better off if you try to pass that skill check alone. I think the aid another skill DC is the same as moderate DCs on skill checks anyway. |
I'll need to reread the aid another errata but it's probably still worth it in skill challenges, especially ones that have serious complications triggered in failures.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:22 am Post subject: |
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juaberman
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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finally.... Rapiers are Martial Weapons again. XD
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, the updates are generally nice. Rapiers seem to be outclassed by quite a few martial weapons anyway, so the bump is a good one.
As for me? My desire to remake Apoei as a 4e wizard increases. And I actually want to use burning hands now. The fireball buff is less exciting, but if you add in the evoker's apprentice class feature (reroll 1's in damage roll), it can really hurt enemies over its large blast radius. Of course, you'll probably need some init boosters so that you can chuck it at a chunk of enemy forces before your allies wade into the action, but what the hey?
Add in the awesome choices from CA: Wizards from Dragon 388 on top of that, and you're good to go for an explosive type of mage.
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dark_axis
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Eternal Elan
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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I'm expecting to see more rogues going back to rapiers with conjunction to Dragon 381. 
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boy_bakal
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Sneak Attack got a rather subtle buff. But yeowch! Between OAs, free action attacks etc., Rogues just got even more lethal.
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erwin
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| boy_bakal wrote: | | Sneak Attack got a rather subtle buff. But yeowch! Between OAs, free action attacks etc., Rogues just got even more lethal. |
Yeah. Now rouges with Melee Basic Training (or Essential Thief) with commander's strike warlords are an awesome team-up.
ADD: This errata also encourage people to use the underrated Riposte Strike 
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erwin
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:58 am Post subject: |
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March 2011 Updates
Most of the changes are for Warlords. And Power Strike is now a No Action, instead of Free, which is hooray for Scouts.
Warlord Addendum
Commander's Strike is now an effect, but still requires to be in range of weapon. What really happened is that ally granted with mba can now be our of your range, aka flanking with the enemy, which was not possible on the original wording iirc.
Tactical Presence feature now only applies for first attack. no nova turn for you allies, but IMO it's a good nerf
This came with the Class Compendium: Warlord article. PHB Warlord is called Marshal.
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oghma
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Ancient Dragon
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:05 am Post subject: |
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erwin
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| oghma wrote: | | Wait, did I miss something about a sneak attack buff? Please enlighten me. |
It's now once per turn, instead of once per round. So if an ally warlord grants you an attack out of your turn (or you make an OA), you have combat advantage on the attack, and you hit, then Sneak Attack applies
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Adding to the Class Compendium.
Class Compendium: Fighter Article
Also, this free pdf (afaik) is part 1 of a series of feats that lets you mix-and-match PHB builds with Heroes of- class features, and vice versa.
Class Compendium: Feats
Come and Get It, one of my favorite fighter powers, got some heavy errata. It now targets Will (increasing it's accuracy since it's still a weapon attack), but made the pulling dependent on the hit. Also, the str mod to damage has been removed. I still like it, all in all.
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erwin
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Class Compendium: Cleric (Templar)
Cleric Updates
What isn't shown on the updates is Healing Word is no longer has the Divine keyword, which was not cool for Pacifist cleric builds. I think this was because Healing Word is also a Sentinel Druid power now.
And Warpriest PP is changed to Tactical Warpriest PP, to remove confusion. Also made his powers Str or Wis vs [DEF], which is awesome versatility.
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boy_bakal
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Lord of Pwnage
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Man, Clerics used to be my favorite class, but after all the errata, the idea of having to keep track of the changes when I play does not sound very appealing... to say nothing of the fact that they've been nerfed six ways from Sunday, of course.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the idea is that the errata shouldn't be a problem if you use their Character Builder... XD </money grab pitch from WotC>
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erwin
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Master of None
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Cleric (Templar) Updates Again!
The only real updates is the pacifist healer feat and beatific healer feat, which now explicitly applies to healing word. Which means it can augment Druid (Sentinel) MC healing word power.
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erwin
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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June 2011 Errata
Almost missed this update.
*Flurry of Blows (power) is now 'No Action'.
*Defenses of Animal Master's (theme) minion now scales! YEAH!
*Most of theme's untyped bonuses became power bonuses.
*Orb of Nimble Thoughts (item) now provides item bonus to initiative = enhancement bonus, instead of Intelligence mod.
*Strategist's Epiphany (power) is now personal T_T
At least I got to use it at its previous form
Cleric (Templar) updates are also posted there.
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BJ
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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erwin
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Master of None
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:20 am Post subject: |
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I do! Just haven't posted in a while.
Can't say much of the update, since I'm not familiar with Rogue class as a whole. Though I do see they finally changed Shadow Assassin Riposte to free action. I recall there was an exploit (and I don't mean a martial power) for that feature when it was still no action, which was working even if the Shadow Assassin is stunned.
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erwin
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Master of None
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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October 2011 Errata
They pumped up kusari-gama's weapon die to 1d10, but just main hand (flail).
Here is where you can get Compiled Errata, as well as errata for specific books.
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