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He Who Founds Wyrmlings

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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject:

Exactly. They can't have skillful because mechanically, that offsets -2int... Sad

Any other ideas, guys?
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supertotoy

Old Dragon

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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject:

Then you'd have to give the Orc Powerful Build too... Half-Giants got powerful build because they descended from Giants anyway! The key to a better half-orc lies in better parentage... since we'd rather not modify the HUMANS... I guess we should modify the ORC, which automatically modifies the HALF-ORC...

My version of the ORC:
+4 STR, +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 WIS, -4 CHA
gains power attack as a bonus feat. (not stronger than that of the human since the human gets any feat, if he meets its requirements, as a bonus feat at 1st level...)

the HALF-ORC becomes:

+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Iintelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Base Land Speed: 30 feet
Darkvision (Ex): Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Light Sensitivity (Ex): Half-orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Abyssal.
Power Attack: A half-orc recieves Power Attack as a bonus feat.
Favored Class: Barbarian
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Revan

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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject:

Skillfull and favored class (all) is nowhere near Darkvision 60.

Also, the attrib mods make them much more competitive than dwarves as warriors, in my opinion. The point is to make small balance tweaks, not paradigm shifts in the race balance.
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings

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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Skillfull and favored class (all) is nowhere near Darkvision 60.

I contest that. DV60' can be done by an arcanist with 2nd level spells. said arcanist will have a hard time becoming a gish if his favored class does not allow it.

+2str, -2in, -2cha of half-orcs VS +2con, -2cha of dwarves? +2str provides net +1to attack, and some mods to damage. +2con gives +1fort saves, +1hp PER HD. Not to mention that they both get detriments to cha, but half-orcs also get -2int. Making them mediocre at best in all things arcane.

hp is as important as attack and damage.

Quote:

The point is to make small balance tweaks, not paradigm shifts in the race balance.

Noted. Also note, however, that UA skillful elves is as much of a flavor thing as it is a mech balance thing. Also, dwarves are better at being warriors than half-orcs. Especially versus each other, thanks to dwarves having +1 attack VS orcs (Another point: Orc blood is more of a detriment than an advantage here.)

All in all, though, we should prolly not compare half-orcs to dwarves. I for one think dwarves should be LA+1.

But since dwarves are such a staple race, let's not change them.

Half-Orcs get a sucky deal, all in all. I personally use them for flavor, and none of my half-orcs have been powerbuilt at that...
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supertotoy

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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject:

While I wholeheartedly agree with Revan that this is not a minor tweak, I think that the abi mods are just fine. As BJ has noted, the dwarf is still a better fighter than the original half-orc. If you look closely, the half-orc just got all the penalties being an orc, and only a measly +2 str to compensate for all those penalties. What I actually did was to make the half-orc better at what it's supposed to be doing (fighting and bashing), and even suckier what it should not be doing (spellcasting)...
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erwin

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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject:

What do Orcs supposed to be good at besides fighting and bashing?

I think this is the question we need to answer..
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supertotoy

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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject:

In the world where v3.5 rules, multiclassing has become integral to power builds. Without some form of spellcasting, you're likely to go kaput unless you're better than the buffed up gish builds..
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings

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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject:

One of the Dragon Mags I got from Revan showcased the Scro, a Spelljammer Orc.

-+4str,+2dex,+2con,
-DVision 60 ft
-Orc Blood
-Favored Class:Monk

What if, (if we're seriously considering Orc revamps) we adopt this as Pharagos Orc? Just change Monk to Barbarian, and we're good.
However, I still don't know how this helps half-orcs... Crying or Very sad

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Revan

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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject:

The thing is that scro do not fit the orc archetype of strong dumb lunk.

And also that Scro are LA+1 or +2.

I like Scro, but not as "standard" orcs.

You might find Scro among the Mandrakori and the Great Wasteland.
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings

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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject:

LA+2.
Yeah. Sorry about that. I was just never copmfy with Orcs being "big dumb lunks". I'm a Warcraft dude, and Orcs there are... different.

That aside, i want to go back on topic with them Half-Orcs. I think they are one of the weakest among the races in PHB. And i still believe that if we're upgrading Half-Elves, then we should upgrade Half-Orcs (through giving them some Human Trait) as well.
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Revan

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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:12 am Post subject:

Favored Class (Any) ?
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings

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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject:

I was actually thinking about that. Very Happy

i think that is appropriate for the half-orc.

Reactions?
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Revan

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Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject:

All right, a little explanation of why we believe Favored Class: Any seems appropriate. Our line of thought earlier this afternoon was more or less:

-1/2 Orcs, like 1/2 Elves, are different, frequently falling under the outcast, accursed, or deviant archetypes.
-Full-blooded Orcs shun half-Orcs because half-Orcs are nowhere near as strong as them. Weak human blood must be the cause of it.
-Humans shun them because they are, well, too orky!
-Half-Orcs are therefore forced to adapt to whatever role or niche that they can get by in. This is frequently a rough and tumble role, like the Barbarian class, but not always the case.

Comments?
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Xtian

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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:53 am Post subject:

Let us examine the orc, the human, and their offspirng, the half-orc.

Quote:

Half-Orcs
+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

Quote:

Orcs As Characters
Orc Traits (Ex)
Orcs possess the following racial traits.
+4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.

Quote:

Humans

On physical stats, orcs get +4 str, half-orcs get +2 str and humans get nothing. Half-orcs ang stronger than human because of their orc side but weaker than full orc because of their human side.

Mental stats. -2 to all mental stats for full orc. No penalties whatsoever for humans. -2 to int and cha for half-orc. Half-orcs are wiser than their full blooded counterparts because of their human blood. half-orcs mental stats are infuenced by both human and orc parentage.

Vision. Orcs have sensitivity to daylight and darkvision. Humans don't have both. Half-orcs have darkvision courtesy of their orc blood without the sensitivity to daylight, courtesy of their human blood.

On language, it is pretty weird since half-orcs have access to abyssal.

Favored class. Orcs and half-orcs are both barbarian. Humans have "any" entry. Flavor-wise, I think half-orcs favor barbarian as their favored class partly because of their orc blood and also because of being an outcast. Being a barbarian is more accessible to an outcast compare to a wizard or cleric or duid that all require formal training.

Overall, the half-orc is mechanically loyal to its flavor. Mechanical balance, however, is another thing. I remember that Revan once said that it was arguable kobolds could get a -1 level adjustment. BJ said that if we wanted to play a kobold, we should suck it up. It seems that Bj changed perspective. Welcome to my and Revan's side. Har Har Har Har!

Back to half-orc. I disagree that they lack human touch. And I disagree that they are screwed up flavorly. Without much flavor to get basis from, I double we could have an agreement on how we could change our red-headed half-orc (and possible full orc). We should get more materials about orcs and half-orcs or Revan could add details on how orcs and half-orcs are different from standard orcs, to justify our change. Though I doubt Revan would add or modify them since he indirectly stated no paradigm shifts.

Could anyone post more orc and half-orc materials aside from PHB and MM?
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Last edited by Xtian on Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total

Xtian

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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:06 am Post subject:

Revan wrote:

-Half-Orcs are therefore forced to adapt to whatever role or niche that they can get by in. This is frequently a rough and tumble role, like the Barbarian class, but not always the case.

Bold mine. Forced to adapt. Emphasize on the word 'force'. I am not sure forcing is similar to favored from favored class. They could take wizard class but would feel .... uncomfortable.
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solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!"

He Who Founds Wyrmlings

Joined: 04 Dec 2006

Posts: 3997

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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:22 am Post subject:

Quote:

Overall, the half-orc is mechanically loyal to its flavor. Mechanical balance, however, is another thing. I remember that Revan once said that it was arguable kobolds could get a -1 level adjustment. BJ said that if we wanted to play a kobold, we should suck it up. It seems that Bj changed perspective. Welcome to my and Revan's side. Har Har Har Har!

You misunderstand my intentions. To wit,

Quote:

Also, UA variant rule I want to implement:
-Skillfull Half-Elves: Half-elves gain 4 bonus skill points at level 1, and 1 extra skill point per level onwards. I feel that the Half-Elf isn't quite as used or as useful, and this little tweak helps offset that a bit.

To which I replied;

Quote:

As good as I believe this variant is, I want to note this one little thing:

Half-Orcs get no love.

Further;

Quote:

That aside, i want to go back on topic with them Half-Orcs. I think they are one of the weakest among the races in PHB. And i still believe that if we're upgrading Half-Elves, then we should upgrade Half-Orcs (through giving them some Human Trait) as well.

I still believe that if you're playing a kobold, you should suck it up. Likewise, I have no actual qualms about the way Half-Orcs work mechanically (and any flavor problems I have were already brought up). My point remains, that if half-elves are upgraded, then half-orcs should be, too.

Half-Elf:
*+1 on listen, search, and spot checks
*+2 on Diplomacy and gather information Checks
*Immunity to Sleep
*+2 on saves VS enchantment
*Elven Blood
*Favored Class: Any

Okay. Now, this isn't a favorite choice for a race. But as Xtian once pointed out, he could make one hell of a diplomat. Emphasis hell. So it's not an entirely useless race. Adding skillful is fun and flavorful, but ultimately not that important. Similarly, I believe Half-Orcs are weak compared to the almighty dwarf, and taking on rather unfamiliar classes (warlock, binder, etc, who mention that half-orcs among their number are numerous) as favored races (thus Fav:any) is fun and flavorful.

But it is not that necessary.

But if Half-Elves get modified, then I insist that Half-Orcs are upgunned as well. That is my point.
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Xtian

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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:27 am Post subject:

Quote:

You misunderstand my intentions.

I misunderstood nothing.

All I did were examine the 3 races and disagreed on few things.

Quote:

You should also suck the half-orc up. If you want to play half-orc then play it as is. That's what you told me right?

Anyway, I love my kobold as is.

However, I'm with Revan here. I want to make a little mechanical balance tweaks on half-orcs. All I was asking was few materials to base our tweaks from. Otherwise, I could give suggestions on what I think is flavorful from what I have and what I know.

Quote:

But if Half-Elves get modified, then I insist that Half-Orcs are upgunned as well. That is my point.

No love for kobolds? Laughing

Using your point, half-orcs won't see love here if half-elves don't get modified. I'm suggesting different takes on these two races. Whether or not half-elves get a facelift is independent to our take on half-orcs.

Quote:

and taking on rather unfamiliar classes (warlock, binder, etc, who mention that half-orcs among their number are numerous) as favored races (thus Fav:any) is fun and flavorful.

At first I thought I would disagree but a half-orc trying to take a nonfavored but flavorful class is not exclusive to half-orcs. As WotC releases more splatbooks, races with favored class (any) benefit more on the new basic classes. Duskblade is appropriate for elves. Martial adepts are appropriate to martial races. I think this is a separate issue we can tackle here.

On half-elf:
Half-elf is not mechanically weak but gameplay tells a different story because their abilities are circumstantial. I do not agree on skillful half-elves since that would be crossing the human's bounderies.

By the way, do you guys know that there is a half-human elf in DMG? It is an half-elf raised in an elf community. Though what is in PHB can be a half-elf raised by either elf or human community, the half-elf in DMG assumes that the half-elf in PHB is raised by humans.

DMG Variant Half-human elf (half-elf raised by elves)
Favored class:Wizard
Medium size.
30 ft movement.
� Low-Light Vision
� Immunity to magic sleep
� +2 Racial bonus on saves vs. Enchantments
� +1 Racial bonus on Listen, Search, & Spot checks.
� Able to use �elf only� items
� Automatic proficiency with all straight Bows
� Automatic proficiency with Longsword and Rapier.

@Revan:
Could you put on the the first post the tweaks that are already approved, on discussion, and issues?
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solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
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boy_bakal

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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:29 am Post subject:

I think the problem with Half-Elves is that they make excellent diplomats, but not much else. It's different from, say, Gnomes, who make for good casters; or Dwarves, who make for good martial characters; or Humans, who make for good anything. It could also be argued that the other core races are good in several other builds, while the Half-Elf hasn't seen much outside of a diplomatic role.

Half-Orcs seem okay on paper, but considering the Orc is LA +0, most people just go full Orc when they want to make a barbarian.

Anyway, that's how I see those two races. You guys handle the tweaks.
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erwin

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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject:

I like to have a suggestion:

I was thinking of giving half-orcs bonus languages any. It makes sense since they become outcast they would go on other communities or would venture alone.. They may learn other languages if they live on other enviroments..

That's just my Suggestion of half-orcs' "human side".

Comments? Very Happy

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boy_bakal

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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject:

I think that would ultimately be offset by the int penalty though
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Revan

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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject:

Hmm. Interesting discussions so far.

All right, since the point is still debatable, lets backtrack from giving half-elves "skillful".

Erwin: The bonus language idea is actually kind of cute, but you can also say the same for half-elf. And ditto with boy_bakal's observation.

I'll look through and try to come up with a list of what we more or less agreed to change earlier and try to do it on the first page. We may want to turn this into the tweaks discussion thread, while another one is the "approved already" thread.
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Xtian

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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:01 am Post subject:

erwin wrote:

I disagree. Elves and halflings adventure (and thus mingle with other races) out of wanderlust and they both have limited list of bonus language.

And also ... languages differ from races to races and possibly region to region. How big (or remote) are these communities are we talking about here?
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solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!"

erwin

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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject:

I had an insight:

Does having a int penalty make you less skillful? Well personally i don't think so.. (although the computation itself depends on int)

barbarians for example have 4+Int skill points gained each level. Barbarians are not known for their intellect yet they are given more skill points than sorcerers or clerics.. It would make sense if half-orcs' favored class (barbarian) is changed to "skillful" (as of human)..

I think having an int penalty doesn't ENTIRELY make you less skillful, but you just have a lesser capacity to learn. Very Happy

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boy_bakal

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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject:

that's not the point. the thing is, even if we made Half-Orcs skillful, it wouldn't be very useful mechanically because of the int penalty. it's as if one cancels the other out, and ultimately, it just feels awkward.
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He Who Founds Wyrmlings

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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I misunderstood nothing.

Then why are you insisting that I should suck it up with the Half_Orc? I AM doing that. What do you call Kruzko? Horn-horn the pink-loving sorcerer?

maybe I should be more direct: If you mechanically:
hate Half-Elves? Suck it up. They work.
hate half-Orcs? Suck it up. I can use them as is. Why can't you?
hate Kobolds? Suck it up. Xtian loves kobolds, and I dont hear him complaining. Very Happy

I am showing the chain reaction that we people are already halfway into. If we modify one race (half-Elves), then naturally other people (vis-a-vis me with the Half-Orcs, Xtian with the Kobolds) would want changes with their races, too. We'll eventually end up trying to re-do most of the standard races, and that is too much for poor little Pharagos.

Quote:

Anyway, I love my kobold as is.

And I love my Half-Orc as is. But if half-elves get facelift, then Orc say "Graahhh!! Me, too!"

the more I look at it, the more it's looking like we should leave racial tweaks alone. 4ed is coming anyway. It's just one more year.

Proposal: Let's change LA when appropriate, but not actual racial traits. It's cleaner that way.
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boy_bakal

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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject:

Why not give half-orcs (and, by extension, full orcs) Weap Familiarity (Orcish Double Axe)? The change is fairly minor, sure, but a) making half-elves skillful is a fairly minor change as well, and b) it makes perfect sense. Dwarves are familiar with their Waraxes and Urgroshes, Gnomes with their Hooked Hammers... so how come Orcs aren't with their double axes?
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Xtian

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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject:

BJ wrote:

Then why are you insisting that I should suck it up with the Half_Orc? I AM doing that. What do you call Kruzko? Horn-horn the pink-loving sorcerer?

I wasn't insisting. Rolling Eyes

Me wrote:

It seems that Bj changed perspective.

BJ wrote:

Slippery slope fallacy.
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solbergb on sorcerers:
"Whether it is true or not, all sorcerers seem to act as if their power is inexhaustible. It really annoys the prepared casters."
A druid on rogue:
"Foolish girl! I am a Druid, I have special abilities more powerful than your entire class!"

He Who Founds Wyrmlings

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Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject:

Quote:

It seems that Bj changed perspective.

And I still say I didn't.

Quote:

Slippery slope fallacy.

Agkh! Philo1! Can'r argue with that...
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erwin

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Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject:

BJ wrote:

the more I look at it, the more it's looking like we should leave racial tweaks alone. 4ed is coming anyway. It's just one more year.

Proposal: Let's change LA when appropriate, but not actual racial traits. It's cleaner that way.

I agree.

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